Originally Posted by Steel and Gold
While Tim Browns and cris Carter's QBs weren't HOFers, Randall Cunningham, Dante Culpepper, and Rich Gannon weren't slouches.
If these receivers are as good as you say they are, a "hall of very good" should be all they need. What good are these guys if they can only show these talents with super duper QBs?
We're never going to agree here, but I don't get your logic.
Again, Brown and Carter had six+ QBs (counting back ups probably closer to nine) throwing to them throughout their careers (compared to Hines' four or maybe five).
If your case for Hines is that he excelled without a premier (or even 'good' QB), then why don't we give the same or extra kudos to Brown/Carter for excelling for the same and then different reasons?
Putting up top-5/10 all-times #s with a variety of QBs clearly demonstrates that no matter who was throwing them the ball they were legit talents.
You can't use ye olde, 'they were only good because of their QBs!' argument. It holds no water since they were good no matter who their QB was
The likes of Jay Schroeder, Steve Buereline, Jeff Hostetler, Jeff George and Donald Hollas weren't 'hall of very good'. They were 'hall of game managers'.
Likewise for Carter's QBs: (young) Rich Gannon, Mike McMahon, Warren Moon, Brad Johnson, Randall Cunningham and Jeff George. (While Moon IS a HoF, he was 38
when he QB'd in MIN. Cunningham was 35
. That's 'Hall of being put out to pasture'.)
Originally Posted by Steel and Gold
Sterling sharpe, Isaac bruce , and fitz(no disrespect to them) may have only had Favre and warner for a few years but those were some pretty damn good years.
Favre was Favre and Warner was a multi MVP as well. Fitz alone hasn't done much since Warner.
I'd make the case Hines down years were better than most the guys you mentioned. Down years referring to when they didn't have their "marquee QBs". Especially when bens early years weren't the best for him as an individual stat.
Tim Brown had nine straight years of 1k+ yards. He missed the 10th by 70 yards. Six of those years came before
Rich Gannon was his QB.
Cris Carter had eight straight years of 1k+ yards. Only the last one was with a young Dante Culpepper (and five were pre-Moss).
Hines only cracked 1k+ yards six times.... ever. He did post four straight years from 2001-2004 (three different QBs) and missed 1k by 25 yards from 2005-06.
Different receivers/systems, but Hines BEST season (100+ rec, 1300+ yards, 10+ TD) is something Brown nearly did four times (1994, 95, 97, 99).
Even if you discounted their worst two years (to make up for the 'extra years' they have on Hines), both Brown and Carter's stats are better than Hines'.
Isaac Bruce's two best seasons came before
Kurt Warner was his QB.
As for Fitz, two of his best seasons came either without Warner throwing the ball to him (2010) or Warner only playing in 10 games (2005).
In 10 years (to Hines' 13), Fitz already has more TDs than Hines and is less than 800 yds and 150 rec away from catching him in those categories. Based on his track record he will surpass yards this year.
His playoff game logs
are sick, too. If you average for the same # of games as Hines played (basically multiply them by 3) they blow Hines out of the water (120 rec, 2100 yards, 27 TD). Even as they are, on a per-game basis, they are superior.
I love me some Hines, but he's the Derek Jeter of the NFL WRs.
You can't let the black and gold bias let you believe he is better than he was.
Still a HoFamer, just not top-10 all time. Maybe