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Old 03-01-2012, 06:24 PM   #21
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

this poll is flawed.

im sure just about 100% of steelerfans think/know he is worthy of the hall of fame. but steelerfans are realists and also one of the most knowledgable fanbases in the league, which is why only 53% believe he will actually make it.

1. logjam at the position.
2. steeler bias and the need for their own wing in canton. (cowher, bettis, faneca, greene, and greenwood still need in)
3. knowing fines and sanctions will come down from the league offices if he actually makes it.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:40 PM   #22
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

We definitely need our own wing, lol.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

one thing ive never seen pointed out is that hines ward went to as many super bowls as jerry rice and m. irvin. he won 1 less.

both were primary targets of their HOF qb and passing game w/in the 1st 5 years of their career (jerry was lucky enough to play for 2 HOF qb's in 1 of the leagues most prolific offense).

his mvp award was thank,s in part, to another wr throwing him the ball.

i dont think anybody will call him the greatest of all time, but he definitely did more with less (including an ACL or blazing wr speed or height.)

he blocked, passed, and ran the ball like no other.
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

Jerry Rice played in 4 SuperBowls.

3 with SF and 1 with Oakland.
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

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Originally Posted by RavenManiac View Post
Jerry Rice played in 4 SuperBowls.

3 with SF and 1 with Oakland.
good call.

wasnt even thinking of his post SF career. (i guess the same will be said if ward plays for another team).
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:18 PM   #26
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

Hines Ward will not get in.

He was never rated higher than a 92 in Madden.
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

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Hines Ward will not get in.

He was never rated higher than a 92 in Madden.
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

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This guy is a HOF in my book, but with all the steeler haters out there who no's look at what Bettis is going through.
What exactly is Bettis going through that makes you feel he is getting jilted?
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:30 PM   #29
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

I dont think people really understand how great Ward really has been... the guy has some of the best numbers in history along with superbowl trophies and MVP's and everyone misses out on the single most important thing. Can you even imagine what kind of numbers Ward would have had people like Montana and young threw him the ball... Yes he had BEN for a few years now but for GOD sakes during some of his best years he had guys like Tommy Maddox, Kent Gram, Tee Carter, and of course the number one reason he should go to the HOF... he had Kordell Stewart for many years throwing him the ball... and to top it off we ran 60 to 40 during those years.... Are you kidding me ? Is there another receiever in the world that could put up numbers with those odds against him? One last thing as far as the speed is concerned... I watched him run away from Delango Hall of the falcons on a 60 yard play... I think Ward was much faster than people think...

by the way someone on here mentioned Chad Johnson as one of the top WR in the game... Yes T.O and Moss I will give you but Johnson I dont think so...

One final point.. Ward has the Superbowls and the MVP... Mike Irvin doesnt have wards numbers and he was first ballot... If Irvin gets first Ballot with his numbers cause he has 3 SB... then Ward should damn sure get in some time down the road with his numbers smoking Mikes in every category and Ward has 2 SB and going to 3 with MVP on top of that.... Its a no brainer guys... Ward should get in with in the first 5 years of so of being on the ticket
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:48 AM   #30
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Default Re: ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer

I'll start by saying that, despite my handle and favorite team, I am not a Ward-hater. I think the guy plays the game exactly the way it should be played and then some. I also think he deserves the HoF, clearly. I am not sure about first ballot. And frankly I think Irvin on first ballot was a stretch/mistake. But (how stat nerds could argue)...

The argument why Irvin gets in before Ward would focus primarily on two things: 1) they played in different eras, and passing/receiving stats were harder to come by 10 years prior, and 2) Irvin played 58 less games.

As for point 1). You mentioned Troy Aikman, but have you looked at Aikman's stats? He averaged less than 200 yards per game for his career. Tomzcak/Stewart averaged about the same in 1999. Aikman threw for more than 3000 yards only 5 times in 12 seasons, and never more than 3445. In other words, Joe Flacco (or Flunko around here), has already thrown for more yards in a season than Troy's best year three times (of his 4 years). And, contrary to my handle and team, I think Flacco is very average. Aikman also only threw for 20+ TDs one season (check his stats they are crazy-mediocre by today's standards). Part of this fact is the era difference and part is that Emmitt got a ton of touches/yards.

On the other hand, in 2002, Maddox/Stewart combined for 4000 yards. Actually Roethlisberger's first two years are closer to Aikman's average type of games, while after that, Ben started putting up stats that were like Aikman's best years, and in a couple years BR absolutely crushed Aikman's best.

Also, Ward's best year in terms of yardage (2002), 1329 yards, saw Burress put up a similar 1325 (on 34 less catches). The year before in 2001, when Ward put up 1003, Burress put up 1008 (on 28 less catches). Those were two of Ward's better (Pro-Bowl) years.

Irvin on the other hand, shared yards with Harper and Novacek but was always the clear statistical leader (#1).

As for point 2). Irvin averaged 4.7 Rec for 74.9 Yards and .409 TDs per game. Ward averaged 4.6 Rec for 55.7 and .392 TDs per game. The difference in per game yards is significantly large. Irvin averaged 34.4% more yards per game over his career.

Of course longevity can be a double edged sword. In theory it is a good thing but in terms of career totals it can be viewed somewhat as a negative. In other words, player A's best/peak years are better but Player B makes up for it with longevity.

If you look at PFR's AV statistics (which are clearly subjective, but also respected) you can see the quality vs quantity difference. Irvin has 5 years where he blows Ward's best year out of the water with AV's of: 15, 17, 17, 18, 19, to Ward's best year of 12.


Bottomlines for the argument would be: the SuperBowls are a wash. Irvin had better stats in his best seasons. Ward lasted longer/stayed healthier.

Again, I am playing Devil's advocate. I think Ward's run blocking alone, which does not show up in any form in any statsheet is worth an extra 3-4k yards to his team over his career (or more). His lockerroom/sideline/huddle leadership/attitude also, I believe, crushes Irvin's. Irvin also was allowed to push off in his era which mitigates some of the era difference.

I think Irvin shouldn't have been a first balloter, and I think Ward should get in. When? I have no idea, considering the logjam, but he deserves the induction. I also can see how people will not conclude that based on Irvin, Ward deserves the same result.
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