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Old 07-31-2012, 01:01 PM   #91
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Default Re: Shooting at Batman movie

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Spare me the insults about anyone who disagrees with you being ignorant with regard to issues of constitutional law (I know who will be getting points in a battle of wits between you and Antonin Scalia) and please answer this question with a yes or no answer

If a public school attempts to prohibit a 14 year old from coming to class with a loaded AR-15 is that contrary to the Second Amenment rights of that student?
This isn't personal Dan. Who you or I agree with or disagree with could not be less relevant. It's not a chess match or battle of wits with a Justice. It is the black and white, unavoidable, bedrock reality that the 2nd Amendment says what it says for the reasons the framers said it.

While you or I might question the practicality of a 14 year old coming to class with a loaded AR-15, such instances have no bearing on the validity or efficacy of the amendment. The framers had sufficient understanding of the human psyche, and the attendant foresight to express the amendment such that it precludes subsequent nefarious attempts to destroy our liberty through case law.
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:38 PM   #92
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Default Re: Shooting at Batman movie

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This isn't personal Dan. Who you or I agree with or disagree with could not be less relevant. It's not a chess match or battle of wits with a Justice. It is the black and white, unavoidable, bedrock reality that the 2nd Amendment says what it says for the reasons the framers said it.

While you or I might question the practicality of a 14 year old coming to class with a loaded AR-15, such instances have no bearing on the validity or efficacy of the amendment. The framers had sufficient understanding of the human psyche, and the attendant foresight to express the amendment such that it precludes subsequent nefarious attempts to destroy our liberty through case law.
Vincent - with all due respect you are the one who has personalized this discussion with observations such as this:

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And one would think that free men and women would instinctively understand and embrace what the framers did here instead of arguing against the ONLY thing that ensures their own liberty. But public school has done its job well.
and this:

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It is stupefying to me that people insist on searching for loopholes to the ONLY thing that protects their own liberty - testimony to the generations of minds that have been destroyed by public schools and "higher" "education"....
But no, our minds are so destroyed by the endless river of leftist bull@#$% from "schools" and the media that many of us can't navigate our way out of an open paper bag.
But getting back to the question to which you still have not provided a yes or no answer - am I correct that it is your interpretation of the Second Amendment that a public school, as a governmental entity that is subject to the Bill of Rights in general and the Second Amendment in particular, cannot bar a student from coming to class with a loaded AR-15?

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Old 07-31-2012, 02:06 PM   #93
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Default Re: Shooting at Batman movie

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But getting back to the question to which you still have not provided a yes or no answer - am I correct that it is your interpretation of the Second Amendment that a public school, as a governmental entity that is subject to the Bill of Rights in general and the Second Amendment in particular, cannot bar a student from coming to class with a loaded AR-15?
"What If" can be great fun at parties, or on long drives. In this case it serves only to erode the security of a free state and the liberty of it's citizens.

The amendment doesn't contemplate any such nonsense one way or the other. Why then would I advance an opinion?

I might ask the question "Dan, would you allow your child to attend school with a gun, or any form of weapon?". See, now there it would become personal. So I wouldn't.

Am I under oath here or something? OK. We didn't allow our children to take their weapons to school out of consideration to the other children and the teachers. Youngsters can have short fuses, and well, weapons in class could be an unnecessary distraction. Although I think the kids at Ma'alot would disagree. Or Columbine, for that matter.
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:43 PM   #94
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"What If" can be great fun at parties, or on long drives. In this case it serves only to erode the security of a free state and the liberty of it's citizens.

The amendment doesn't contemplate any such nonsense one way or the other. Why then would I advance an opinion?

I might ask the question "Dan, would you allow your child to attend school with a gun, or any form of weapon?". See, now there it would become personal. So I wouldn't.

Am I under oath here or something? OK. We didn't allow our children to take their weapons to school out of consideration to the other children and the teachers. Youngsters can have short fuses, and well, weapons in class could be an unnecessary distraction. Although I think the kids at Ma'alot would disagree. Or Columbine, for that matter.
I am not trying to put you under oath

As someone as well read as you are probably is aware, hypotheticals are a standard method by which an advocate's position is questioned in order to determine the principles underlying an argument. You may recall how that works if you followed the oral arguments on the health care law before the Supreme Court this spring. Cases and controversies are the means by which the extent and limits upon rights have been established since the founding of the Republic..

If a government can act to not allow children to take guns to class, isn't that an infringement on the right to bear arms that you contend is absolute? I assume you agree that the same Second Amendment standard applies to federal, state, and local governments (that is the holding in Heller and McDonald. While parents and caretakers can place restrictions upon their children's use of firearms, the Second Amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights only applies to governmental actions.

And if infringing the rights of students to bear arms at school does not violate the Second Amendment, since avoiding the "unnecessary distraction" of having loaded weapons in class is something that a government can regulate in the not unlikely event some parents are unaware of or perhaps encourage kids taking guns to school, doesn't that mean that the Second Amendent right to bear arms can be infringed and that the extent to which it can be infringed is the real test? That is the position of Scalia and Alito that you appear to contend is contrary to the intent of the Founders.

Or is your position that if someone is concerned about kids bringing guns to school they better hope a private citizen stops that from happening because there is nothing the federal, state, or local government can do to stop teenagers from carrying assault rifles to class?
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:08 PM   #95
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isn't that an infringement on the right to bear arms that you contend is absolute?

Or is your position that...
I contend nothing. My position is that the 2nd Amendment is forthright and unambiguous in what it states - that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. I'm simply agreeing with the framers.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:19 PM   #96
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I contend nothing. My position is that the 2nd Amendment is forthright and unambiguous in what it states - that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. I'm simply agreeing with the framers.

but refuse to apply it to the real life situation Dan posits. That's a luxury the courts don't have.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:20 PM   #97
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I contend nothing. My position is that the 2nd Amendment is forthright and unambiguous in what it states - that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. I'm simply agreeing with the framers.
Who is parsing language now? Your position is a contention

And your position is that if a school district bars a student from walking into class with a loaded AR-15 that school district is infringing upon that student's right to bear arms under the Second Amendment as established by the Framers.

Just making sure I am not twisting your words
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:30 PM   #98
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but refuse to apply it to the real life situation Dan posits. That's a luxury the courts don't have.
What business is it of the courts?

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Just making sure I am not twisting your words
Let me streamline it you. I agree with the framers. Other than that. I don't have a position aside from my inference that the amendment mandates that we be armed as responsible citizens.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:54 PM   #99
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What business is it of the courts?.
Ummmm .... its called judicial review .... it is how the plaintiffs in Heller and McDonald were able to challenge under the Second Amendment the restrictions upon possesion of firearms imposed by the District of Columbia and teh City of Chicago.

As the Supreme Court reiterated this past term in striking down portions of health care law as unconstitutional

“The powers of the legislature are defined and limited; and that those limits may not be mistaken, or forgotten, the constitution is written.” Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 176 (1803). Our respect for Congress’s policy judgments thus can never extend so far as to disavow restraints on federal power that the Constitution carefully constructed. “The peculiar circumstances of the moment may render a measure more or less wise, but cannot render it more or less constitutional.” Chief Justice John Marshall, A Friend of the Constitution No. V, Alexandria Gazette, July5, 1819, in John Marshall’s Defense of McCulloch v. Maryland 190–191 (G. Gunther ed. 1969). And there can be no question that it is the responsibility of this Court to enforce the limits on federal power by striking down acts of Congress that transgress those limits. Marbury v. Madison, supra, at 175–176.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...11-393c3a2.pdf

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Let me streamline it you. I agree with the framers. Other than that. I don't have a position aside from my inference that the amendment mandates that we be armed as responsible citizens.
But what about irresponsible citizens that shoot up schools. Nothing can be done by the gummint to keep guns off school property?

And FWIW Scalia and Alito have held the Framers do not agree with you - it is your opinion the right to bear arms under the Second Amendemnt is unrestricted but that is all it is - an opinion and one that is contrary to the preponderance of legal scholarship and Supreme Court precedent

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” ― Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:57 PM   #100
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Default Re: Shooting at Batman movie

Dan, he's playing his game. He's not interested in a legitimate discussion.

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