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Old 08-06-2012, 01:19 PM   #41
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

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Originally Posted by Vis View Post
I think the definition is the same. It's just overused. The T word grabs attemtion
The statutory definition of domestic terrorism in the United States has changed many times over the years; also, it can be argued that acts of domestic terrorism have been occurring since long before any legal definition was set forth.

According to a memo produced by the FBI's Terrorist Research and Analytical Center in 1994, domestic terrorism was defined as "the unlawful use of force or violence, committed by a group(s) of two or more individuals, against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:31 PM   #42
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

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Originally Posted by Bayz101 View Post
The statutory definition of domestic terrorism in the United States has changed many times over the years; also, it can be argued that acts of domestic terrorism have been occurring since long before any legal definition was set forth.

According to a memo produced by the FBI's Terrorist Research and Analytical Center in 1994, domestic terrorism was defined as "the unlawful use of force or violence, committed by a group(s) of two or more individuals, against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."
Forget legal definitions. Use Websters
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:47 PM   #43
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

Well, you can put one and two together and know it means a terrorist close to home.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:59 PM   #44
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

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Looking forward to Ric's response to that statement, assuming he's not too busy ridding the planet of pejoratives..
I believe if I would have posted something along the lines of describing the alleged co-conspirators as "polygamist cult/fascist worshipers of Mammon/welfare loving sodomites" it might be more in the spirit of the language used by certain posters that Ric has noted
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:02 PM   #45
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

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I believe if I would have posted something along the lines of describing the alleged co-conspirators as "polygamist cult/fascist worshipers of Mammon/welfare loving sodomites" it might be more in the spirit of the language used by certain posters that Ric has noted
You just slammed the moslems. Ric's gonna be pissed.
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:52 PM   #46
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

Sigh...

Vincent's addiction to name-calling aside, I'm not sure why the definition of terrorism is at issue here (I would say this incident terrorized the domestic population, wouldn't you?) nor why the conversation isn't once again about the guns. Easy access to guns makes for easy access to murder.

I'm looking forward to hearing Vincent's suspicions about the "isolated crazy incidents" and how they're used for nefarious purposes (I'm assuming to bolster the anti-gun lobby's arguments). Under what sized rock does one have to live to view this as "isolated"?
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:27 PM   #47
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

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Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
Sigh...

Vincent's addiction to name-calling aside, I'm not sure why the definition of terrorism is at issue here (I would say this incident terrorized the domestic population, wouldn't you?) nor why the conversation isn't once again about the guns. Easy access to guns makes for easy access to murder.

I'm looking forward to hearing Vincent's suspicions about the "isolated crazy incidents" and how they're used for nefarious purposes (I'm assuming to bolster the anti-gun lobby's arguments). Under what sized rock does one have to live to view this as "isolated"?
Partially my fault I suppose, but that's not the direction I was intending it to take.

As for the gun thing, I don't see how banning guns would stop people who want to murder from murdering. Especially when we're talking about handguns (which is all this supposed lone gunman had). Wouldn't it instead be prudent to look at WHY people commit such crimes, and try to deal with that issue, instead of punishing law abiding citizens?

I had posted before about how banning all guns isn't going to solve the problem (this post was lost in the board reset), and used DC as an example. I can't remember the year offhand from the article I read, but it stated that 1/5th of guns confiscated were homemade handguns. You'd have to ban people from shopping the Sears catalog to effectively keep guns out of crazy people's hands. Just google how to make a handgun if you think I'm joking.

But lets take UK for an example here...

(From 2001)
A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.
The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.

Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

(From 2008)
The gun shown here, a Webley, is up for sale in London for 150, one of hundreds of such weapons that are easily and cheaply available on the streets of the UK's big cities, a Guardian investigation can reveal.

The variety of weapons on offer in Britain is extensive and includes machine guns and shotguns, as well as pistols and converted replicas. A source close to the trade in illegal weapons contacted by the Guardian listed a menu of firearms that are available on the streets of the capital.

"You can get a clean [unused] 9mm automatic for 1,500, a Glock for a couple of grand and you can even make an order for a couple of MAC-10s," he said. "Or you can get a little sawn-off for 150. They're easy enough to get hold of. You'll find one in any poverty area, every estate in London, and it's even easier in Manchester, where there are areas where the police don't go.

"People who use shotguns tend to be lower down the pecking order. There is less use of sawn-off or full length shotguns, and if a criminal wants street cred, he wants a self-loading pistol, a MAC-10 or an Uzi submachine gun."

This week a man who ran a "factory" for converting replica weapons into working guns was jailed for life. Police believe the products of Grant Wilkinson's workshops were used in more than 50 shootings, including eight murders. His speciality was turning legally purchased MAC-10s into weapons that could fire live rounds, an increasingly common practice.

According to David Dyson, a leading firearms consultant, it is possible to learn through the internet how to make a firearm, given a degree of skill, and converted deactivated weapons also feature in shootings.

But it is the arrival of eastern European weapons that, alongside a homegrown industry in converting them, has contributed to the firearms glut. "There has been an influx from eastern Europe and particularly from Poland, and there are also a lot coming in from people who have served in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the source. "In Liverpool docks, you can put in an order for 10 guns and some grenades and they'll say OK and two weeks later, they will be there - and they are straight goers."

According to Dyson, the latest "weapon of choice" is a Russian 8mm Baikal self-defence pistol, originally used for firing CS gas. "They are legally sold in Germany and won't fire a bullet but they can be converted by removing the partially blocked barrel, and replacing it with a rifled barrel," he said. "After other small alterations, it can then fire 9mm bulleted ammunition. The replacement barrel is longer than the original, and is threaded so that it will accept a silencer, which is commonly sold as part of the package.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

(From 2009)
Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.
In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.
The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz22nrzKLXn


I know their gun crime is still significantly lower than the US, but by their standards, strict gun laws haven't kept gun crime down at all. Instead, it's been the opposite.

And I'm in agreement with Vincent on this one, not that this is some kind of isolated incident, but that it is being magnified and used to bolster the argument that citizens should be heavily restricted from owning firearms. We'd obviously be much safer I guess if only criminals, police, and military were the only ones with firearms.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:34 PM   #48
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

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Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
Vincent's addiction to name-calling aside...
Gee Ric, exaggerate much?

Call a moslem a [slur] and you're "addicted to name calling". Its not like I called them inbred 7th century mutants or anything so unbecoming.

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Easy access to guns makes for easy access to murder.
Murderers murder people. Their choice of implements vary.

As an example, when moslems in India murder Indians they bomb, hack, grenade, hang, stab, beat, and yes, shoot the objects of their love and peace. And that was just in the last month. Since 9/11 there have been over 1700 individual acts of moslem love and peace against Indians (in India alone) tallying an impressive 4600 deaths and nearly 11000 wounded. And to their credit, the moslems don't love just the Sikhs. They share their love with all Indians. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Somewhere in those statistics there might be an argument for armed Indians but I'll leave that to the more erudite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
I'm looking forward to hearing Vincent's suspicions about the "isolated crazy incidents" and how they're used for nefarious purposes (I'm assuming to bolster the anti-gun lobby's arguments). Under what sized rock does one have to live to view this as "isolated"?
By "isolated crazy incidents" who are you quoting?

I will quote one of your favorite sources on the subject - Mother Jones. Since 1982 there have been "58 mass murders" carried out with guns. Thats 58 too many incidents. An average of just under 2 incidents a year. And isolated.

Compare those 58 incidents over 30 years to the loving acts of kindness committed by our moslem friends since 9/11 alone - 19,734 incidents leaving more than 100,000 dead and over 170,000 wounded.

Yes, again, 58 too many incidents. But in context of a population of 300 million over 30 years, modest numbers indeed. Vastly more took their own lives with guns in the same span.

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Originally Posted by SCMom View Post
I know their gun crime is still significantly lower than the US, but by their standards, strict gun laws haven't kept gun crime down at all. Instead, it's been the opposite.
And, as it happens, only the bad guys have guns.
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Last edited by ricardisimo; 08-06-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:28 PM   #49
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent View Post

I will quote one of your favorite sources on the subject - Mother Jones. Since 1982 there have been "58 mass murders" carried out with guns. Thats 58 too many incidents. An average of just under 2 incidents a year. And isolated.

Compare those 58 incidents over 30 years to the loving acts of kindness committed by our moslem friends since 9/11 alone - 19,734 incidents leaving more than 100,000 dead and over 170,000 wounded.

Yes, again, 58 too many incidents. But in context of a population of 300 million over 30 years, modest numbers indeed. Vastly more took their own lives with guns in the same span.



And, as it happens, only the bad guys have guns.

those global numbers are the numbers of chumps. (funny how those numbers are grossly inflated since LLT last tried presenting this argument several years ago- i guess the right wing moslem haters had to bump them up a bit to be more evil than our north american "trade" partners.

do you have a favorable opinion of mexicans vincent? how bout the random acts of terror kindness commited 100 miles away from me in Juarez every single day? or your fellow countrymen who smuggle billions of dollars and thousands of guns that fuel the daily terrorism on our back porch.

its funny because the ones who often speak the loudest about muslim terrorism are usually the ones most silent on the failed war on drugs and the terrorism conducted by the southern cartels.

is it because one has a backdrop of an apocalyptic battle of religions and the other is just americas past time of doing drugs?

no matter how you slice it, we are a nation of rich drug addicted Christians, and people either hate us or want a peice of what we've got...
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:21 PM   #50
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Default Re: Sikhs express shock after shootings at Wisconsin temple

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Gee Ric, exaggerate much?

Call a moslem a [slur] and you're "addicted to name calling". Its not like I called them inbred 7th century mutants or anything so unbecoming.
I'm asking you politely, Vincent. Tone it down. You've been coddled and enabled by your fellow kooks on these boards for a long time, but it won't be happening any longer, not here anyway. State your arguments - however distasteful they happen to be to many of us - in a respectful manner, or be infracted. Stop with the slurs. That's all I'm asking.

Quote:
Murderers murder people. Their choice of implements vary.
True, and the weapon of choice in this country is guns, which make murdering easier, quicker, and a lot more fun for sickos.
Quote:
As an example, when moslems in India murder Indians they bomb, hack, grenade, hang, stab, beat, and yes, shoot the objects of their love and peace. And that was just in the last month. Since 9/11 there have been over 1700 individual acts of moslem love and peace against Indians (in India alone) tallying an impressive 4600 deaths and nearly 11000 wounded. And to their credit, the moslems don't love just the Sikhs. They share their love with all Indians. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Somewhere in those statistics there might be an argument for armed Indians but I'll leave that to the more erudite.
What are the murder rates in those backward, ultra-violent Muslim countries? How many other countries have those Islamic nations invaded in the past 200 years?

Quote:
By "isolated crazy incidents" who are you quoting?
You.
Quote:
I will quote one of your favorite sources on the subject - Mother Jones. Since 1982 there have been "58 mass murders" carried out with guns. Thats 58 too many incidents. An average of just under 2 incidents a year. And isolated.

Compare those 58 incidents over 30 years to the loving acts of kindness committed by our moslem friends since 9/11 alone - 19,734 incidents leaving more than 100,000 dead and over 170,000 wounded.

Yes, again, 58 too many incidents. But in context of a population of 300 million over 30 years, modest numbers indeed. Vastly more took their own lives with guns in the same span.
I don't read Mother Jones, so I doubt very much that I have ever quoted them. You know very well that aside from the occasional Chomsky or Cockburn editorial, I tend to quote "the enemy"... CIA World Factbooks, the US government itself, Fox News, etc. Makes arguments much more interesting when you agree to use whatever numbers and ideas they are citing. But you keep posting that non-partisan "religionofpeace" link. Winning people over by the boatload with that one, I'm sure.

As far as "58 too many incidents", what drugs are you on? By "58 too many" are you referring to how many people are murdered with handguns every day in the United States? Because I believe you will find that number is actually much higher. Every day. And if we're talking of "modest numbers", how about the murder rates in China (and you can include mass-knifings if you'd like, as per MoP's recent post)? That's over a billion people, in a similarly crime-obsessed culture as ours, somehow miraculously not killing each other at anywhere near the rates we do. Go figure.

Quote:
And, as it happens, only the bad guys have guns.
Really? Is there some sort of "bad guy" stat to which you are privy?
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