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Old 12-18-2012, 07:41 PM   #101
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Originally Posted by Atlanta Dan View Post
True that

But people still die in auto accidents - that does not mean you eliminate equipping vehicles with air bags and seat belts
No, but you also don't ban cars and/or alcohol because of accidents or DUI's.

To me, it really is a culture thing. I'm glad Australia is seeing good results (in terms of mass killings...their crime rate overall has gone up since gun bans though, similar to UK).

These are people who were never as violent as Americans though, so of course it's going to work better there. The UK barely even needed gun regulations before they were implemented.

If you want good, solid, comparisons, look at our own cities. A lot of people use NYC as a talking point in how gun control has worked, but then you look at cities like Chicago, or LA, where gun laws are strict, but gun violence and crime in general is high. I truly believe that if criminals do not think that you have guns, it makes it easier for them to victimize you. And I know this is cliche, but there's a reason you never hear about mass shootings in, say, gun ranges. They are almost always in gun free zones.

My main focus is on increasing the responsible gun owner population. These are not toys or games that we're dealing with. It's fucking serious business, and it should be treated as such. I don't want a gun in the hands of someone irresponsible any more than you do....trust me on that.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:41 PM   #102
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Thats because it's not the cars fault.
It is not the guns fault either

My point is you do not base imposing a regulation on a product (which is what guns and ammo are - they are not holy relics) upon whether it eliminates the problem - you do a cost/benefit analysis
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:55 PM   #103
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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No, but you also don't ban cars and/or alcohol because of accidents or DUI's.

To me, it really is a culture thing. I'm glad Australia is seeing good results (in terms of mass killings...their crime rate overall has gone up since gun bans though, similar to UK).

These are people who were never as violent as Americans though, so of course it's going to work better there. The UK barely even needed gun regulations before they were implemented.

If you want good, solid, comparisons, look at our own cities. A lot of people use NYC as a talking point in how gun control has worked, but then you look at cities like Chicago, or LA, where gun laws are strict, but gun violence and crime in general is high. I truly believe that if criminals do not think that you have guns, it makes it easier for them to victimize you. And I know this is cliche, but there's a reason you never hear about mass shootings in, say, gun ranges. They are almost always in gun free zones.

My main focus is on increasing the responsible gun owner population. These are not toys or games that we're dealing with. It's fucking serious business, and it should be treated as such. I don't want a gun in the hands of someone irresponsible any more than you do....trust me on that.
But the shooter's mother was "high strung" but apparently what is defined as sane - no background check was going to keep the weapons she bought away from her nutcake son

It gets back to measuring the costs and benefits of regulating a product - if you need a 30 clip magazine to make target practice meaningful fine - you can buy it at the range and not take it offsite

If you want to go hunting go for it - but you do not need an AR-15 to do it

Urban dwellers such as myself have a blind spot with regard to gun enthusiasts (I joined FBI agents in my federal prosecutor days at the range but have not continued the practice) but red state America has made my previous enjoyment of marijuana a crime so it as not as if the Government has not banned what I regard as a net benefit to my personal well being.

As far as Americans being "culturally" more violent than Aussies? - really? As I said before, you cannot ignore the easy access to guns as part of that difference.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:55 PM   #104
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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But the shooter's mother was "high strung" but apparently what is defined as sane - no background check was going to keep the weapons she bought away from her nutcake son

It gets back to measuring the costs and benefits of regulating a product - if you need a 30 clip magazine to make target practice meaningful fine - you can buy it at the range and not take it offsite

If you want to go hunting go for it - but you do not need an AR-15 to do it

Urban dwellers such as myself have a blind spot with regard to gun enthusiasts (I joined FBI agents in my federal prosecutor days at the range but have not continued the practice) but red state America has made my previous enjoyment of marijuana a crime so it as not as if the Government has not banned what I regard as a net benefit to my personal well being.

As far as Americans being "culturally" more violent than Aussies? - really? As I said before, you cannot ignore the easy access to guns as part of that difference.
Meanwhile, you totally overlook that banned guns have been used in mass shootings.

I used to be an urban dweller too. I'm not sure how that's relevant to the topic.

Nobody uses AR-15's for hunting. You can't use semi-auto weapons for hunting. The 2nd amendment doesn't just define hunting though.

You also keep wanting to make this a personal issue (blaming a high strung mother). So what if she was sane enough to own guns? You think if she didn't own guns something like this couldn't happen? The dude had mental issues. Obviously. To be able to shoot your own mother, and then classrooms full of children means you have serious issues. Yeah, gun bans will surely fix that shit.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:31 PM   #105
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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It is not the guns fault either

My point is you do not base imposing a regulation on a product (which is what guns and ammo are - they are not holy relics) upon whether it eliminates the problem - you do a cost/benefit analysis
The same could be said about cars.

Put a limit of only being able to drive them 10 miles a day, ban "high powered" cars and so on. More people/children are killed by cars every year than people by guns a year. And hey think of the energy we'd be saving.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:41 PM   #106
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Meanwhile, you totally overlook that banned guns have been used in mass shootings.

I used to be an urban dweller too. I'm not sure how that's relevant to the topic.

Nobody uses AR-15's for hunting. You can't use semi-auto weapons for hunting. The 2nd amendment doesn't just define hunting though.

You also keep wanting to make this a personal issue (blaming a high strung mother). So what if she was sane enough to own guns? You think if she didn't own guns something like this couldn't happen? The dude had mental issues. Obviously. To be able to shoot your own mother, and then classrooms full of children means you have serious issues. Yeah, gun bans will surely fix that shit.
Umm I do. They make a good coyote rifle and for rock chucks.

Remember because their black doesn't make them useless as a rifle, it's a .223 which is a great varmint caliber.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:46 PM   #107
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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The same could be said about cars.

Put a limit of only being able to drive them 10 miles a day, ban "high powered" cars and so on. More people/children are killed by cars every year than people by guns a year. And hey think of the energy we'd be saving.
Hate to break the news to you but private ownership of vehicles has a hell of a lot greater net benefit to the majority of the citizenry than the private ownership of guns
(take a poll - ask how many people would be willing to walk everywhere)

Leaving aside the theological position that the right to bear all munitions is absolute under the Second Amendment, regulation is based upon cost/benefit analysis - the lesser the benefit the more justified the costs

As I told SC Mom earlier, I respect your opinion - we will agree to disagree on this
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:53 PM   #108
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Originally Posted by MACH1 View Post
The same could be said about cars.

Put a limit of only being able to drive them 10 miles a day, ban "high powered" cars and so on. More people/children are killed by cars every year than people by guns a year. And hey think of the energy we'd be saving.
very good point. These horrendous acts get all the publicity, but drunk drivers kill many more than these crimes do. Bottom line is people need to be held accountable for actions. Stiff crimes and not letting multiple offenders or even psych patients into the general public. Some people just cant be rehabilitated. This country is fubar'd in many ways.I personally would like to go back to the wild west and have everyone armed. These crazy fucks might get 1 or 2 but not 20 victims. Really sucks that I have to explain this shit to my daughter and she is scared to go to school.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:12 PM   #109
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Umm I do. They make a good coyote rifle and for rock chucks.

Remember because their black doesn't make them useless as a rifle, it's a .223 which is a great varmint caliber.
True. I guess I should have specified that those laws go by state. You aren't legally allowed to use an AR (or any other semi auto) for any hunting purposes in PA (which is a generally lenient gun state). That's my bad.

Just got done reading an article about how hunters (of larger game) abhor those that use .223's for hunting because they are not efficient in kills and cause the animal to suffer more. I don't think they're useless by any means...just wasn't thinking past state hunting laws.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:31 PM   #110
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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No, but you also don't ban cars and/or alcohol because of accidents or DUI's.

To me, it really is a culture thing. I'm glad Australia is seeing good results (in terms of mass killings...their crime rate overall has gone up since gun bans though, similar to UK).

These are people who were never as violent as Americans though, so of course it's going to work better there. The UK barely even needed gun regulations before they were implemented.

If you want good, solid, comparisons, look at our own cities. A lot of people use NYC as a talking point in how gun control has worked, but then you look at cities like Chicago, or LA, where gun laws are strict, but gun violence and crime in general is high. I truly believe that if criminals do not think that you have guns, it makes it easier for them to victimize you. And I know this is cliche, but there's a reason you never hear about mass shootings in, say, gun ranges. They are almost always in gun free zones.

My main focus is on increasing the responsible gun owner population. These are not toys or games that we're dealing with. It's fucking serious business, and it should be treated as such. I don't want a gun in the hands of someone irresponsible any more than you do....trust me on that.
Australia was a penal colony, for goodness sake. There are aspects to their culture and history that are more violent than our own. But we are the Empire, and I suspect that this is the difference-maker, and is the ultimate source of the cultural problems we're talking about. Running the planet is a lot easier when your soldiers start playing with guns at birth, and prepare at a doing age for killing.
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