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Old 12-19-2012, 04:31 PM   #121
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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perhaps not , but does anyone need a 400 hp engine anymore than a person needs a 30 round clip ?
people die everyday thanks to driving at high rates of speed despite speed limits and laws ....i know / knew people on both ends of traffic fatalities that were due to driving at wreck less high speeds and i'm sure most of you do as well... so where's the outrage over these killing machines ?
does anyone need a car or motorcycle that does 160 when the speed limit is 65 ?
would you support a ban on sports cars or anything over 150 hp ?
would traffic fatalities decrease with strict "auto control" ?

i want an all out ban on these death traps !!! what say you mach ?
Mines prettier.

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Old 12-19-2012, 05:34 PM   #122
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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I never suggested he was running for office. I'm not running for office either (libertarian here. Voting for people without being certain of their actual approaches seems to be a common thing in the US today. Why would you vote for them if you weren't certain of their approaches?
Because aside from the Presidential and U.S. Senate races Georgia elections usually are walkovers - the Dems did not even bother to nominate someone to run against the 2 GOP incumbents.

If there only minor party candidates opposing the incumbent in those circumstances I will vote for the minor party candidate - if only the incumbent is on the ballot I leave my ballot for that office blank - my small protest regarding how most "elections" have become a ritual term renewal for whomever holds the office
.
FWIW I did not think you were accusing him of running for office either - my reply was in response to the question of how one engages with the Government while having grave reservations about much of what the Government oversees in the 21st century

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Old 12-19-2012, 05:47 PM   #123
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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I never suggested he was running for office. I'm not running for office either (libertarian here. Voting for people without being certain of their actual approaches seems to be a common thing in the US today. Why would you vote for them if you weren't certain of their approaches?
I think voting 3rd party is admirable, even if you're not completely certain about this or that particular party or candidate. If we didn't have Greens or P&F here in California I would absolutely vote Libertarian. And there is a lot I don't like about the Libs, but give me any Libertarian before even the best Democrat or Republican.

Just make sure the third party you're voting for is not National Socialist or theologically based, and you're pretty much good beyond that.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:33 PM   #124
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

Understood from both perspectives.

I just didn't get why you would vote for someone based on party alone, Dan. As a libertarian, I'm not questioning your choices, just wondering lol.

I'm a firm believer in knowing what people are running for, and why. That includes local elections.

This isn't on topic though, even if I think it's an interesting debate (why people vote the way they do).

What I'd like to know is, what are people's opinions on UN gun bans? (I'd mostly like to hear opinions from those who are for more US gun regulation.)

Do you think the US has a right to allow the UN to impose gun regulations on our country? Or should we be allowed to decide those laws for ourselves?

My answer would be that I don't think the federal gov't should be allowed to determine laws for all states (minus slavery laws, etc.). I see gun laws like I see drug or abortion laws. I don't think the federal gov't should have a say in it. The 10th amendment allows states to make their own laws that are not superseded by federal laws. So obviously I don't think the UN should be allowed to determine out gun laws.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:08 PM   #125
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Do you think the US has a right to allow the UN to impose gun regulations on our country? Or should we be allowed to decide those laws for ourselves?
The U.S. has a right to enter into a treaty that might include restrictions on some practice but can pretty much elect to ignore whatever the UN or any nation regards as a best practice - power does flow from the barrel of a gun - the U.S. still has the biggest gun and can respond to just aboiut anything propsoed by the UN or another natioon by saying thanks for the suggestion and get lost. And even a treaty cannot justify a practice that is unconstitutional.

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My answer would be that I don't think the federal gov't should be allowed to determine laws for all states (minus slavery laws, etc.). I see gun laws like I see drug or abortion laws. I don't think the federal gov't should have a say in it. The 10th amendment allows states to make their own laws that are not superseded by federal laws. So obviously I don't think the UN should be allowed to determine out gun laws.
As you note, he 10th Amendment needs to interact with the powers granted the federal government under the Constitution, one of the most sweeping of which is the power to regulate whatever migkt be defined as "interstate" commerce under the Commerce Clause (a big issue in the Obamacare Supreme Court decision). Of course just because some law is constitutional does not mean it is good public policy - as the saying goes that is why elections matter

IMO the tussle in gun regulation will not be under the Commerce Clause or the 10th Amenmdnt - sales of guns & ammo pretty clearly enter intersate commerce. It will be what bans or regulations of guns and ammo do not run afoul of the 2nd Amendment under teh ratioanle of the Heller v. District of Columbia decision in which the Supreme Court held an absolaute ban on handguns in DC violated the 2nd Amendment but noted not all regulations of firearms are unconstitutional
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:19 PM   #126
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

I've had too much wine already...I shall try to process your thoughts in the AM

One thing I agree with you on though is that just because something is deemed constitutional does not mean it's good public policy. Prohibition laws come first to mind in that respect. That's another law that I don't think the federal gov't should have a say in. Obviously, I'm more states rights than anything else (except when it comes to obvious lack of human rights).
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:21 AM   #127
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

I'm not entirely sure why people are for states' rights over those of the federal government. The US is a state, after all, and why is one state better than another (and let's face it: if you live in the Deep South, for example, Federal laws might seem positively dreamy compared to state and local laws, especially for non-rich non-whites.

But at least one part of it I get: it's a movement downward, closer to oneself, which is cool. But it's still largely moot in these here United States. Anything beyond the county level (and probably more like the city level) is completely bought and paid for and out of our hands. So why choose the states over the Feds?

There are advantages to federal law, especially with something like gun bans. It would be nice to think that a California gun ban isn't rendered completely meaningless by lax Nevada and Arizona laws.

And yes, the second amendment is all that matters. It needs to be repealed. No meaningful debate (even just debate!) can take place in this country while the 2nd amendment stands.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:57 AM   #128
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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I'm not entirely sure why people are for states' rights over those of the federal government. The US is a state, after all, and why is one state better than another (and let's face it: if you live in the Deep South, for example, Federal laws might seem positively dreamy compared to state and local laws, especially for non-rich non-whites.

But at least one part of it I get: it's a movement downward, closer to oneself, which is cool. But it's still largely moot in these here United States. Anything beyond the county level (and probably more like the city level) is completely bought and paid for and out of our hands. So why choose the states over the Feds?

There are advantages to federal law, especially with something like gun bans. It would be nice to think that a California gun ban isn't rendered completely meaningless by lax Nevada and Arizona laws.

And yes, the second amendment is all that matters. It needs to be repealed. No meaningful debate (even just debate!) can take place in this country while the 2nd amendment stands.
Like I said, I'm for federal regulations in certain instances (slavery, civil rights, commerce and labor regulations, etc....powers already delegated by the US Constitution).

I am not for federal regulations on things like drug laws, same sex marriage, abortion...where federal law trumps state law. Or do you want the 10th amendment struck down as well? Should individual states not have a right to their own laws anymore, period? When the federal gun bans were lifted, I'm sure you were still glad that CA had strict gun laws. What if federal law trumped all that, meaning that CA no longer had the right to pass it's own gun regulations? I can't imagine you'd be in favor of that.

That's what I mean by being for states rights.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:12 AM   #129
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Like I said, I'm for federal regulations in certain instances (slavery, civil rights, commerce and labor regulations, etc....powers already delegated by the US Constitution).

I am not for federal regulations on things like drug laws, same sex marriage, abortion...where federal law trumps state law. Or do you want the 10th amendment struck down as well? Should individual states not have a right to their own laws anymore, period? When the federal gun bans were lifted, I'm sure you were still glad that CA had strict gun laws. What if federal law trumped all that, meaning that CA no longer had the right to pass it's own gun regulations? I can't imagine you'd be in favor of that.

That's what I mean by being for states rights.
It is an open question exactly what gun laws California can pass after Heller. "States rights" are trumped by the Second Amendment

For example, the 7th Circuit struck down an Illinois gun law last week that pretty much banned public carying of weapons on the basis that it violated the Second Amendment
http://blogs.findlaw.com/seventh_cir...itutional.html

With regard to federal "regulation" of abortion, that is based upon a constitutional right to privacy established by the Supreme Court that limits the power of State and local governments to regulate access to abortion - you may disagree with Roe v. Wade but is is just as much a binding opinion of the Supreme Court as the two Second Amendment opinions handed down in 2008 (Heller v. District of Columbia) and 2010 (McDonald v. City of Chicago) that for the first time, after more than 200 years of constitutional law, held the Second Amendment clearly created an individual right to bear arms and thereby barred significant regulation of handguns by DC and Chicago. Links to opinions below if you have some spare time and have not had the opportunity to read how the Second Amendment has been interpreted recently

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al.v. HELLER
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content.../06/07-290.pdf

MCDONALD ET AL. v. CITY OF CHICAGO, ILLINOIS,
ET AL.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf

State and local governments are not just subject to laws passed by Congress. They are subject to Constitutional limitations upon their actions established by the incorporation of certain rights articulated in the Bill of Rights under the original amendments to the Constitution (which only limited actions by the federal government) into the due process clause and equal protection clauses of the Fourteeenth Amendment, which limits the actions of state and local governments (limitatoins upon actions by the District of Columbia are diffeent becuase it is a creation of the fedral government).

Just as you may regard Roe v. Wade as unwise, some of us are not big fans of the Heller and McDonald opinions. But they are all binding Supreme Court precedent and are all based upon the same theory that places Constitutional restrictions upon the ability of State and local governments to regulate certain private conduct.

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Old 12-20-2012, 10:19 AM   #130
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http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f...1/cj26n1-6.pdf

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f.../pdf/pa109.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009...mestats_122109
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