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Old 12-20-2012, 06:51 PM   #21
Riddle_Of_Steel
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
You mean it isn't blatantly obvious the Steelers are overly concerned with TOP?
Even if they are obsessed with ToP-- WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? We have a lot of old guys on defense, and the way to keep a defense fresh is to own the ball and not let the other team do the same.

It also deprives the other team of scoring opportunities if they don't have the ball.

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Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
Where do I see it? I see it in the way they play. I see it when Wallace is only sent a few yards down field. I see it when they try to run up the middle on 1st and 2nd downs. I've heard in Tomlin's press conferences earlier in the season, something along the lines of "we want to possess the ball."
Again, that is a winning strategy, in any level of football. Where we got derailed this year was with the injuries, the defense that started out rough, lack of a legit franchise RB, and a freak injury to Ben on a sack that did not look any more vicious than the 46 per season he was averaging under Arians.

The gameplan was nearly flawless, the execution is where the failure was.

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Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
You can site stats or talk about the mandate to protect Ben all you want, but what matters most is 20th in scoring and 7-7. The team needs a change in offensive philosophy. Instead of fearing the quick strike teams, they need to become one.
20th in scoring is two spots above where Arians offense ranked in its prime, if I am not mistaken. Keep in mind, when Arians took over, he was already an assistant for our team and did nto do a complete overhaul of teh playbook like Haley was expected to do upon arrival.

All things considered, our offense was clicking this year in a way it hasn't done in seasons, until Ben got hurt and the wheels fell off in KC.

"Instead of fearing the quick strike teams, they need to become one?" Isn't that what Haley is doing?
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddle_Of_Steel View Post
Even if they are obsessed with ToP-- WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? We have a lot of old guys on defense, and the way to keep a defense fresh is to own the ball and not let the other team do the same.

It also deprives the other team of scoring opportunities if they don't have the ball.
Because that's an outdated way of thinking. This defense has been burned even when the offense owned TOP. This is no longer a grind-it-out clock possession league, it's about striking quickly. You wanna take pressure off a defense, score more points and put the pressure on the other team.

How many times have we seen the Steelers grind out a long drive, only to come out with a FG? And after that, how many times have we seen the other team march down the field quickly and get a TD? It's time the Steelers stop fearing the quick strike teams and become one.



Quote:
Again, that is a winning strategy, in any level of football. Where we got derailed this year was with the injuries, the defense that started out rough, lack of a legit franchise RB, and a freak injury to Ben on a sack that did not look any more vicious than the 46 per season he was averaging under Arians.

The gameplan was nearly flawless, the execution is where the failure was.
7-7, 20th in scoring. Not winning football. Take your head out of the 70's.



Quote:
20th in scoring is two spots above where Arians offense ranked in its prime, if I am not mistaken. Keep in mind, when Arians took over, he was already an assistant for our team and did nto do a complete overhaul of teh playbook like Haley was expected to do upon arrival.
Then maybe an overhaul wasn't the right solution. Maybe what worked should have been kept, keeping the focus more on red zone efficiency. If a dud like Arians can have the 9th scoring offense in his first season as OC, there's no excuse for Haley not to do better.

Quote:
All things considered, our offense was clicking this year in a way it hasn't done in seasons, until Ben got hurt and the wheels fell off in KC.

"Instead of fearing the quick strike teams, they need to become one?" Isn't that what Haley is doing?
Umm, do you not know what quick strike means? Quick strike means scoring points quickly, like the Patriots, Broncos, and Packers do.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
You mean it isn't blatantly obvious the Steelers are overly concerned with TOP? Where do I see it? I see it in the way they play. I see it when Wallace is only sent a few yards down field. I see it when they try to run up the middle on 1st and 2nd downs. I've heard in Tomlin's press conferences earlier in the season, something along the lines of "we want to possess the ball."

You can site stats or talk about the mandate to protect Ben all you want, but what matters most is 20th in scoring and 7-7. The team needs a change in offensive philosophy. Instead of fearing the quick strike teams, they need to become one.
MAIN GOAL
I’m sure Tomlin’s mentioned “possessing” the ball, because that is generally a topic of discussion about one’s offense. I am also sure that he has mentioned touchdowns… and points… and converting third downs… and not fumbling… and blocking. All of those items come up in post-game interviews… so, what exactly is your point???

You aver that the MAIN goal of this offense is TOP, but I have never heard anyone say that. Whereas, I have indeed heard them say that their main goal is to prolong BB’s career. Less sacks = goal achieved.

Wait… you watched tape. Oh…

Again, I’m going to take the word of the highly respected professional: Greg Cosell.

STATS
Again, Cosell is not about stats; he is ONLY about film. Thus, once again, I am going to agree with his assessment of the offense.

RECORD
6-3 before BB's injury.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:23 PM   #24
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
Because that's an outdated way of thinking. This defense has been burned even when the offense owned TOP. This is no longer a grind-it-out clock possession league, it's about striking quickly. You wanna take pressure off a defense, score more points and put the pressure on the other team.
Last year's game against the Taperiots.... a good game, yes?

They kept Brady on the sidelines.

Yes, obviously, the difference was that the offense scored TDs (everyone agrees with that), but keeping the ball for longer is not a bad thing.

Quote:
7-7, 20th in scoring. Not winning football. .
6-3 before BB's injury.

Scoring offense ranked TWO places higher than Arians offense, even after BB missed three games.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddle_Of_Steel View Post
Even if they are obsessed with ToP-- WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? We have a lot of old guys on defense, and the way to keep a defense fresh is to own the ball and not let the other team do the same.

It also deprives the other team of scoring opportunities if they don't have the ball.



Again, that is a winning strategy, in any level of football. Where we got derailed this year was with the injuries, the defense that started out rough, lack of a legit franchise RB, and a freak injury to Ben on a sack that did not look any more vicious than the 46 per season he was averaging under Arians.

The gameplan was nearly flawless, the execution is where the failure was.



20th in scoring is two spots above where Arians offense ranked in its prime, if I am not mistaken. Keep in mind, when Arians took over, he was already an assistant for our team and did nto do a complete overhaul of teh playbook like Haley was expected to do upon arrival.

All things considered, our offense was clicking this year in a way it hasn't done in seasons, until Ben got hurt and the wheels fell off in KC.

"Instead of fearing the quick strike teams, they need to become one?" Isn't that what Haley is doing?
Hey riddle I agree with everything here. The offence was moving well until that KC game. Even before Ben was injured; KC pretty much shut down the Steeler offence. Which makes me think. This is a copy cat league. Are other teams doing what KC did in that game?? This is where Haley needs to start to adjust to try to kick start the offence because it has become a little predictable.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:34 PM   #26
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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You aver that the MAIN goal of this offense is TOP, but I have never heard anyone say that. Whereas, I have indeed heard them say that their main goal is to prolong BB’s career. Less sacks = goal achieved.
I avert it's the goal based off what I see. When 3 speedy receivers only run down field 5 yards, that should tell you a lot about this offense.

Quote:
Last year's game against the Taperiots.... a good game, yes?

They kept Brady on the sidelines.

Yes, obviously, the difference was that the offense scored TDs (everyone agrees with that), but keeping the ball for longer is not a bad thing.
They actually let Ben beat the Patriots that time and didn't limit him to 5 yard passes. How about the Denver game? Offense possesses the ball for a long time, then Manning comes back and goes 80 yards in less than a minute, three times.

Quote:
6-3 before BB's injury.

Scoring offense ranked TWO places higher than Arians offense, even after BB missed three games.
Still underachieving. Again, Arians had the 9th ranked offense in his first year. If the worst human being in the world had that kind of an offense in his first year, why can't Haley? No excuses. Maybe blowing up everything on the offense was the wrong move. Maybe instead the focus should have been on red zone efficiency as they were pretty good moving the ball in between the 20's.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:51 PM   #27
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
I avert it's the goal based off what I see. When 3 speedy receivers only run down field 5 yards, that should tell you a lot about this offense.



They actually let Ben beat the Patriots that time and didn't limit him to 5 yard passes. How about the Denver game? Offense possesses the ball for a long time, then Manning comes back and goes 80 yards in less than a minute, three times.



Still underachieving. Again, Arians had the 9th ranked offense in his first year. If the worst human being in the world had that kind of an offense in his first year, why can't Haley? No excuses. Maybe blowing up everything on the offense was the wrong move. Maybe instead the focus should have been on red zone efficiency as they were pretty good moving the ball in between the 20's.
FIVE YARD ROUTES
I will give you that. I’d like to see Wallace go deeper. But, if the goal was to keep BB upright, those short routes have kept him from getting killed.

Quick throws = less sacks = goal achieved.

TAPERIOTS
The point of me mentioning that game was that the offense controlled the clock & owned the TOP in that game. BB hit a bunch of short passes, with (yes) the occasional deep pass. But, the Steelers marched methodically down the field, while Brady stood on the sidelines.

Time of possession is not a bad thing at which to do well.

BRONCOS
BB missed a wide-open Heath Miller in the back of the end-zone; in fact, he hit the goal-post. BB also threw a pick-six.

My point is not to blame BB; my point is that BB was THROWING the ball.

The defense allowed Peyton to march down the field. The DEFENSE. How is that relevant to the offense??? How is Haley responsible for Demaryius Thomas’s long TD run???

RED-ZONE
Agreed. The red-zone scoring is still lacking. That comes down to execution. I recall vividly drops by WRs, WRs not getting their feet in bounds, and errant throws.

As Cosell said: the correct plays were called, but the execution is lacking (he cited fumbles).

RANKINGS
In 2007, BB was not injured. Santonio Holmes & Hines Ward were in their primes. FWP was running rampant. And, they played the NFC West (which was horrible). I would expect Arians to have a good year.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:06 PM   #28
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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I liked the way Haleys offense was progressing after about the 4th or 5th game. If I had any complaints they were and are, not enough shots down field with the deep ball, and running way too much on first down. Now as far as using Wallace as a deep threat I agree, but only to an extent. Using him too often, becomes predictable and will tire our true deep threat out during the course of a game. On the other hand his presence should draw a lot of double coverage which will open the underneath routes up more. Brown should be used for deep routes also to keep the secondary honest.

It's hard to throw the ball deep when you a)have one of the worst o lines in football giving the QB no time b)a QB who does not throw a pretty deep ball for the most part c) defenses not scared of running game. If Ben was better at delivering the ball in stride, those throws to Wallace may turn into big gains. Of course the receivers must actually catch the ball on those rare occurrences and not fumble the ball away. I find very little to fault Haley with considering what he is given. In years past I would have agreed that you couldn't put another QB in our system and have them do as well as BB. Now, I can think of about 10. That isn't because of Haley, it's just because Ben's skills are eroding and defenses are pretty much well versed in his play.

Wallace, from what I have seen is not a great route runner and he fails to fight for Ben's errant throws, unlike Brown who I have seen do it regularly. Despite everything, having a speed demon blowing the top off defenses is something all 32 teams could use. He will be long gone to another team next season and hopefully Gilreath can step into Sanders shoes with Sanders stepping into Wallace's.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:23 PM   #29
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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FIVE YARD ROUTES
I will give you that. I’d like to see Wallace go deeper. But, if the goal was to keep BB upright, those short routes have kept him from getting killed.

Quick throws = less sacks = goal achieved.
And this is why the Steelers are 7-7 - playing scared. Yes, Ben "could" get hurt. But the offensive line could also do it's job and pass protect. You don't minimize you're best weapon because you're shitting your pants about what could go wrong.

Quote:
TAPERIOTS
The point of me mentioning that game was that the offense controlled the clock & owned the TOP in that game. BB hit a bunch of short passes, with (yes) the occasional deep pass. But, the Steelers marched methodically down the field, while Brady stood on the sidelines.

Time of possession is not a bad thing at which to do well.

BRONCOS
BB missed a wide-open Heath Miller in the back of the end-zone; in fact, he hit the goal-post. BB also threw a pick-six.

My point is not to blame BB; my point is that BB was THROWING the ball.

The defense allowed Peyton to march down the field. The DEFENSE. How is that relevant to the offense??? How is Haley responsible for Demaryius Thomas’s long TD run???
No one is saying the defense is blameless in that game, but it just goes to prove my point - TOP is not that important, and a defense can still lose a game in less than 25 minutes. When you worry about TOP, you're taking options away from your offense. The other team's defense knows Wallace won't be running deep routes, so you're just letting them stack the box. Predictable play-calling made it even worse. It was amazing Ben had such a good QB rating on 3rd downs in the Denver game as the pass rushers could just pin their ears back on 3rd & long.

Quote:
RED-ZONE
Agreed. The red-zone scoring is still lacking. That comes down to execution. I recall vividly drops by WRs, WRs not getting their feet in bounds, and errant throws.

As Cosell said: the correct plays were called, but the execution is lacking (he cited fumbles).

RANKINGS
In 2007, BB was not injured. Santonio Holmes & Hines Ward were in their primes. FWP was running rampant. And, they played the NFC West (which was horrible). I would expect Arians to have a good year.
And the Steelers played the AFC West (shitty division except for Denver) and NFC East (overrated ESPN hype). Why can't they be better than 20th if that's the case?
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:43 PM   #30
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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And this is why the Steelers are 7-7 - playing scared. Yes, Ben "could" get hurt. But the offensive line could also do it's job and pass protect. You don't minimize you're best weapon because you're shitting your pants about what could go wrong.



No one is saying the defense is blameless in that game, but it just goes to prove my point - TOP is not that important, and a defense can still lose a game in less than 25 minutes. When you worry about TOP, you're taking options away from your offense. The other team's defense knows Wallace won't be running deep routes, so you're just letting them stack the box. Predictable play-calling made it even worse. It was amazing Ben had such a good QB rating on 3rd downs in the Denver game as the pass rushers could just pin their ears back on 3rd & long.



And the Steelers played the AFC West (shitty division except for Denver) and NFC East (overrated ESPN hype). Why can't they be better than 20th if that's the case?
PARAGRAPH 1
6-3 before BB's injury.

1-4 since.

Looks like "playing scared" was working.

PARAGRAPH 2
BB was indeed passing in that game. The team did not convert.

PARAGRAPH 3
Those 2012 opponents all had sound defenses; the 2007 opponents did not. Plus, BB wasn't injured for three games in 2007. Hines Ward. FWP. Et cetera.

More importantly, as Greg Cosell said, the offense was on the right track... until the injuries.

SUMMATION
6-3... Greg Cosell's educated analysis means everything... BB was injured... repeat...
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