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Old 12-24-2012, 10:35 AM   #21
GoFor7
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

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Originally Posted by Ricco Suavez View Post
All you got to do is look back at his posts from years back and you will find that he is not a fan of Ben, although who we replace him with I would like to know.
Yes, there's a few posters like him that only seem to show up after a bad game from Ben. During the four game winning streak, they were nowhere to be found.

For some reason, these guys can't wait for the star QB to fail. When he does fail, they'll list every single bad throw he's ever made, but won't acknowledge he's done far more good than bad. Gotta wonder where this attitude comes from.

Are they worried Ben is becoming bigger than the Steeler logo? Star QBs are bigger than their team's logo, that's just how the NFL is now.

Are they upset that the team from the 90's didn't win anything? No star QB, but great defense and stout running game - just the way yinzer nation wants the game played. It had to sting them when this young star QB shows up and the Steelers finally get over the top and win numbers 5 and 6. So they'll twist things as much as possible to make it seem like Ben has been irrelevant to the Steelers over his career to vindicate the style of football the Steelers played in the 90's.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:35 AM   #22
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

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Originally Posted by Ricco Suavez View Post
All you got to do is look back at his posts from years back and you will find that he is not a fan of Ben, although who we replace him with I would like to know.
No, I'm not a fan of Ben nor of any Steeler for that matter, I'm a Steelers fan. I'm way past the age to identify myself with a player.

Someone just posted an interesting statistic debunking the idea that Ben has less time that the other top QBs to throw the ball or avoid a sack. You should read it.

Found it for you. Enjoy. http://forums.steelersfever.com/show...8&postcount=25
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

Ben has played 3 1/2 games less than those guys. He was having a Pro Bowl year before he was injured. And if you want to dissect the stats, we can do that:

Take a look at the way each respective offense is designed and the concept behind each. Totally different. Ben can make the plays when he needs to. Just like in years past, he has started out good, was injured, and plays at a lesser level. That is not surprising.

Remember, Ben does not design the offense. A "5 yard pass 60 yards from the opponent's endzone" is on Haley, not Ben. It seems based on his completion rate, he is making the throws Haley is asking of him. No? That is not on Ben.

The problem to me is the concept behind the play calling. The short, repeated meaningless passes (and 2 yard runs up the middle) miles away from the endzone might net some clock time, but Haley's offense cannot seem to get into the endzone to score 7. Usually a field goal. The opponent drives down the field for 7. Rinse and repeat. Ben is then asked to make game winning throws on a final drive to win the game. Due to pressure he makes mistakes. Human nature. The problem is we expect Ben to win every time the network flashes his game winning drive stats. We are brainwashed.

I also think Ben is not anywhere near one hundred percent. He is missing throws he should make. If you look at his turnovers, most are in the closing minutes of the game when he is forced to throw under pressure running plays they have no experience running throughout the other 56 minutes of the game. Honestly, I think Arian's offense was better suited for that situation.

If you look at the stats, the don't lie. If you want to delve into them, I think I provided a solid layman's analysis of them. On a broader scale, the team suffers from the lack of key plays at key times. first and second quarter plays mean nothing when they end up losing to teams by 3 points they should be soundly beating. That is not on Ben, he is making the throws. Like I said, that is on Haley. And Ben has had similar numbers under Arians. So, under two OC's Ben has been a league leader. That is impressive on a personal level for him.

This season is not on BR, that is for sure.


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OK, I stand corrected. I give you meaningless accuracy then, and you give me meaningful accuracy, I mean, when and where accuracy matters.
A 5yd pass completed 60 yards from the opponent's end zone means sh*t to me. An INT in the first 2mn of a game means sh*t to me compared to an INT when the game is on the line.

What I look at is nb of passing TDs and Ben has 23 for the season vs. 39 for Brees, 35 for Rodgers, 34 for Manning and 31 for Brady. I don't have time to look at previous seasons but I'm 100% certain he's behind the same guys.

Is Ben a scoring machine? Nope.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:43 AM   #24
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

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Originally Posted by plenewken View Post
No, I'm not a fan of Ben nor of any Steeler for that matter, I'm a Steelers fan. I'm way past the age to identify myself with a player.

Someone just posted an interesting statistic debunking the idea that Ben has less time that the other top QBs to throw the ball or avoid a sack. You should read it.
So you cherry pick the stats you want to believe in. Interesting, Never understood the not a fan of players. The current roster IS the Steelers, all you root for is the LOGO then. Hey I understand not liking some current players, but as long as they wear B&G I will be a fan of them on the field. When Porter, Woodson, Hope, Washington , and others have left, I could care less how they do. The same with Ben, when he goes I will not keep up with him, but to down him at every opportunity and lessen his role in the Steelers success is not right. All I hear is Defense won all those SB's, even his 2nd yr when he became the youngest QB of a SB winning team, his play in the three playoff games preceding the SB were as good as any in the history of the Steelers. And while JH made a history making play in the Arizona SB Ben had to lead a 4th quarter comeback after the defense gave up a two score lead. So hate him, dislike him, have your opinion, but do not expect all of us to agree with it.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:44 AM   #25
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

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This season is not on BR, that is for sure.
Never said it was, so don't use straw man arguments.
I only said he's not , in my opinion, an accurate passer and I will add that at 31, after 8 seasons, he should make better decisions down the stretch.
I don't think his game has progressed during the last 3 - 4 years and that's both on him and coaching.
I never suggested we replace him but for the $$$ the Steelers pay him, I expecting a better and more consistent offensive production is not too much to ask.
That's all I'm saying.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:59 AM   #26
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

Ben loved his old OC, so we fire Arians and then force a new OC on Ben that he really doesn't like.

Ben has requested on numerous occasions to let him run more no huddle, yet we hardly ever let him do it.

Ben has asked several times for a big WR target, we finally re-sign Plaxico but then put him on the inactive list.

we waste our time trying to establish the run with mediocre RBs behind a makeshift OL.

would it be such a bad idea to allow Ben to just be Ben and give him more input into this offense, isn't that why we gave him a $100 million contract?

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Old 12-24-2012, 12:00 PM   #27
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

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Originally Posted by plenewken View Post
Never said it was, so don't use straw man arguments.
I only said he's not , in my opinion, an accurate passer and I will add that at 31, after 8 seasons, he should make better decisions down the stretch.
I don't think his game has progressed during the last 3 - 4 years and that's both on him and coaching.
I never suggested we replace him but for the $$$ the Steelers pay him, I expecting a better and more consistent offensive production is not too much to ask.
That's all I'm saying.
1st down: RUTM
2nd down: Bubble Screen
3rd & long: OMG BEN PLEASE BAIL US OUT!

You put any QB in that situation, he won't always be successful. His third down conversion rate before the injury speaks to how good of a QB he is.

Artie needs to realize that kind of football doesn't work anymore.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

QBs hated in the Burgh? How about the WRs? Burress,Holmes, Ward (when he was trying to get paid), Wallace? Id say the WR position is the most hated in the Burgh. At least the QB gets their money and stay around, with the exception of Ward, the WRs are shipped when they want market value for their services.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:17 PM   #29
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

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You guys believe what you want about Ben. I believe he's not an accurate passer, neither in the pocket nor outside the pocket. His wobbly ball isn't the easiest to catch, even when it has the distance.
He's a scrambler./gunslinger, not the high completion % kinda guy. He can make something happen out of nothing but can also make nothing happen out of something.

It's my opinion and I'm not asking you to agree with it.
all those bubble screens add up to a lot of high percentage completions
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:37 PM   #30
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Default Re: Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one

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That's the issue. One has to realize that even if he's not a top 3 QB he's a top 6 QB for sure. There are at least 20 teams who would kill to have him as their QB.

Let's say we want to improve the QB position. What are the odds of us getting a top 5 QB in the draft the next few years, even spending a first round pick on one? HIGHLY UNLIKELY. And then we'd be waisting draft resources trying to slightly improve one position when we hvae glaring needs on many other positions.
Brady
Rodgers
Manning
Brees
RG3
Luck
Wilson
Manning

I would wager every team would take the above over Ben

Tannehill
Kaepernick
Cutler

three more that you could argue teams would take over Ben

Dalton
Rivers

maybe a few but I wouldn't.

I put Ben as a for sure top 15 QB with potential for top 5 if he would work harder at his craft. He needs to work within an offense. Prepare better and please go to the gym and actually try to make your body stronger and more fit. You'd think he'd hit the weights and try to improve those girly arms of his. That right there bothers me to no end. It proves to me he has no desire to make himself the best he can be. He gets by with God given talent. Imagine if he was to hit the gym like say Luck or heck even Brady does? Maybe watch some tape and take what the D gives him? He could be pretty damn impressive.

You see guys like Luck and RG3 come into the league looking buff and just know they work their butt off in the gym to be as fit as possible. You see guys like Brady and Manning with that never ending desire to win the mental game through film study and reps on the field. You see guys like Wilson and Brees work so hard to overcome their physical limitations and make themselves champions. I just don't see the same passion from Ben. Sure he is a big tough guy who is hard to bring down and who has great footwork and inate pocket presence. But that is what comes natural to him. I want to see him develop what doesn't come natural. A better deep ball, better leadership, hitting receivers in stride, audibles. He is getting long in the tooth for him to suddenly get it. I don't have much hope. Maybe though.
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