Lebeau Defenses not Championship Defenses

[Rotorhead]

Hhmm, so you dont like DL eh. We have a bad year and it is the def coords fault . . . As far as rookies not being able to start, that is false, we typically start new players after there seasoned vets have left, hell spence was projected to start this season before his injury, Troy started his rookie season. Usually we draft replacements 1-2 seasons prior to needing them is the main reason rookies dont often start. But i guess that is a bad idea since our anually top 5 ranked def is actually terrible. There are 30 other teams out there that would love to have our terrible def, why do i even post in stupid threads like these?

[madtowndrunkard]

You haters of the 3-4 need to ask you selves this..... When was the Steelers OFFENSE considered the best in the NFL? OR even a top 5 offense?

How often does our offense walk onto the field and just light it up? I mean since our defense is so "Bad" , "mediocre" ."smoke and mirrors" etc as many of you say.... what is our offense doing?

Is the offense exempt from being asked to bail out our bad defense from time to time?


It's our defense that consistently performs at a top level... do we have room for improvement? Sure...I would have liked to see more turnovers this year....I'd like to see more sacks....but they still did their job in at least holding the opponent to less then 21 points most of the time..... Don't forget to subtract those points that were a direct result of our offense turning the ball over.

Our offense is as inconsistent as it gets. Our offense often puts pressure on the defense to be dominant in order to win. Chalk it up to injuries or coaching...but either way you slice it... Dick Lebeau's 3-4 defense has for the most part been good enough to win titles. Most certainly our 3-4 defense has consistently been better then the rest of the league - especially when looked at over the past 5-10 years.

The same cannot be said about our offense. If you think Dick Lebeau isn't good enough... I can't imagine what you think about the vast majority of other D-coordinators. Heck minus maybe one or two other guys... NO ONE in the NFL has defenses performing at the level we have over the past 10 years. It's not even debatable.

[Steelers5895]

Originally Posted by madtowndrunkard

I'm not going to kill you for your opinion...but I am going to tell you why you are wrong... it's not as black and white as you are trying to make it out to be. There's more to it then "rankings"

#1 - our defense during our SB years and all the other years we went deep into the playoffs was good...in most cases VERY good.

#2 - The offense bailing us out is a rare occurrence over the last 20 years. Anyone paying any attention to the steelers knows well that the majority of the time it was the defense bailing out the offense...when that wasn't happening...we weren't making the playoffs. More often then not it was our defense keeping us in games...it was our offense failing to capitalize... this year is a great example of that.

#3 - The GB superbowl - would have been won by the steelers if it weren't for the turnovers made by our offense. We were up against the best offense in the league...we were going to give up points and yardage. This is a new era in the NFL...a passing era... the rules support this. We would not have been to the SB with out a solid defense and offense. I'll argue it does take both to win SB's. It's usually a fluke when a one dimensional team does it.

#4 - poor officiating did not win that SB against Seattle...to say it did is just ignorant. I'd admit it if it were true... I hate the officials as much as anyone. But most of the so called questionable calls were actually correct. A few were not...but we also got hosed on a couple...and Seattle did not exactly do anything to make one think they were the better team. That game was a standoff till a team made something happen... and it was the steelers that did that. We were in that SB because of our defense - PERIOD. The defense kept us in position to win it... it took some imagination from the offense to put points on the board.

#5 - not sure how long you've been a steeler fan but you probably don't have enough fingers to count how many times lack of scoring and turnovers cost us victories in the playoffs. In some cases it kept us from making the playoffs... this season for example.

#6 - apparently you didn't watch the 2nd half of this season...but all we needed was ANYTHING from our offense to make the playoffs...we got nothing.. the offense failed us 10X for every time the defense failed. Turnovers were often the cause.

#7 - What exactly are you expecting from our defense? We are consistently in the top 5 in the NFL year after year. Sure we get beat sometimes...but I do remind you that we are playing professionals... guys like Brady, Manning, Rogers, etc beat defenses on a regular basis... they are among the best ever at their position...obviously we can't expect to dominate every game defensively. I'll remind you that most defenses are NOT as good as ours yet they still find ways to win. The 49ers are a good example... wasn't till they found a QB that their team started winning. The packers on the other hand...have an offense but can't seem to find a defense capable of winning more then the 1 ring they have. Rogers is most definitely good enough to win multiple rings. he's better then Ben by a long shot.

#8 - I could probably go on and on with this...but dude...put some actual thought into what you are saying. This is a team sport.

Excellent valid points. Keep in mind, great, championship defenses obsorb costly offensive errors. We let Drew Bledsoe in a relief role make huge plays in a home championship game. yes team sport But I would say since 2001 our offense let us down only in Big Bens championship game in 2004.

Lets not even go back that far, look at just under Tomlin.

2007- Jags game was a joke. We let the Jags move at will and if not for Ben we were not in that game. And, we saw how it ended with garrard running into filed goal range at the end.

2008- solid season but how many games did Ben have to come back and win a game for us? To include the Super Bowl? he was herioic in that season.

2009- Blown lead after blown lead. oakland? really?

2010- I get no defense was stopping the packers BUT there were many opportunities to make a stand and they didnt. Their defense did ours didnt.

2011- Tebow man handles us

2012- well, 6 blown leads

as for Super Bowl 40, i dont think the refs won the game for us, but at crucial times when Seattle was driving a call would be borderline. To include taking a TD off the board.

So, my question, when in any of these games did you feel that when our defesne was on the field it was a done deal?

[Steelers5895]

Originally Posted by Rotorhead

Hhmm, so you dont like DL eh. We have a bad year and it is the def coords fault . . . As far as rookies not being able to start, that is false, we typically start new players after there seasoned vets have left, hell spence was projected to start this season before his injury, Troy started his rookie season. Usually we draft replacements 1-2 seasons prior to needing them is the main reason rookies dont often start. But i guess that is a bad idea since our anually top 5 ranked def is actually terrible. There are 30 other teams out there that would love to have our terrible def, why do i even post in stupid threads like these?

troy did not start until late late in the season his rookie year. a #1 pick no less

[Steelers5895]

Originally Posted by madtowndrunkard

You haters of the 3-4 need to ask you selves this..... When was the Steelers OFFENSE considered the best in the NFL? OR even a top 5 offense?

How often does our offense walk onto the field and just light it up? I mean since our defense is so "Bad" , "mediocre" ."smoke and mirrors" etc as many of you say.... what is our offense doing?

Is the offense exempt from being asked to bail out our bad defense from time to time?


It's our defense that consistently performs at a top level... do we have room for improvement? Sure...I would have liked to see more turnovers this year....I'd like to see more sacks....but they still did their job in at least holding the opponent to less then 21 points most of the time..... Don't forget to subtract those points that were a direct result of our offense turning the ball over.

Our offense is as inconsistent as it gets. Our offense often puts pressure on the defense to be dominant in order to win. Chalk it up to injuries or coaching...but either way you slice it... Dick Lebeau's 3-4 defense has for the most part been good enough to win titles. Most certainly our 3-4 defense has consistently been better then the rest of the league - especially when looked at over the past 5-10 years.

The same cannot be said about our offense. If you think Dick Lebeau isn't good enough... I can't imagine what you think about the vast majority of other D-coordinators. Heck minus maybe one or two other guys... NO ONE in the NFL has defenses performing at the level we have over the past 10 years. It's not even debatable.

2008 ben carried us with come back after come back after come back.

I want a winning QB not one who puts up big stats. ben wins and since he has been around its been on his shoulders over the defenses.

[harrison'samonster]

Originally Posted by Steelers5895

Excellent valid points. Keep in mind, great, championship defenses obsorb costly offensive errors. We let Drew Bledsoe in a relief role make huge plays in a home championship game. yes team sport But I would say since 2001 our offense let us down only in Big Bens championship game in 2004.

Lets not even go back that far, look at just under Tomlin.

2007- Jags game was a joke. We let the Jags move at will and if not for Ben we were not in that game. And, we saw how it ended with garrard running into filed goal range at the end.

2008- solid season but how many games did Ben have to come back and win a game for us? To include the Super Bowl? he was herioic in that season.

2009- Blown lead after blown lead. oakland? really?

2010- I get no defense was stopping the packers BUT there were many opportunities to make a stand and they didnt. Their defense did ours didnt.

2011- Tebow man handles us

2012- well, 6 blown leads

as for Super Bowl 40, i dont think the refs won the game for us, but at crucial times when Seattle was driving a call would be borderline. To include taking a TD off the board.

So, my question, when in any of these games did you feel that when our defesne was on the field it was a done deal?

well sure leave out 05 when we won the SB and 04 when we went 15-1 with a rookie QB. I also find your reason for not counting 08 as a Championship quality defense as unacceptable.

[harrison'samonster]

Originally Posted by Steelers5895

2008 ben carried us with come back after come back after come back.

I want a winning QB not one who puts up big stats. ben wins and since he has been around its been on his shoulders over the defenses.

It's up to the offense to score points. Are you seriously going to put it on the D that our offense has found ways to win games at the end?

[madtowndrunkard]

Originally Posted by Steelers5895

Excellent valid points. Keep in mind, great, championship defenses obsorb costly offensive errors. We let Drew Bledsoe in a relief role make huge plays in a home championship game. yes team sport But I would say since 2001 our offense let us down only in Big Bens championship game in 2004.

Lets not even go back that far, look at just under Tomlin.

2007- Jags game was a joke. We let the Jags move at will and if not for Ben we were not in that game. And, we saw how it ended with garrard running into filed goal range at the end.

2008- solid season but how many games did Ben have to come back and win a game for us? To include the Super Bowl? he was herioic in that season.

2009- Blown lead after blown lead. oakland? really?

2010- I get no defense was stopping the packers BUT there were many opportunities to make a stand and they didnt. Their defense did ours didnt.

2011- Tebow man handles us

2012- well, 6 blown leads

as for Super Bowl 40, i dont think the refs won the game for us, but at crucial times when Seattle was driving a call would be borderline. To include taking a TD off the board.

So, my question, when in any of these games did you feel that when our defesne was on the field it was a done deal?

The thing is.. you are pointing to rare occurrences... the vast majority of games were won by the defense.... The idea that Ben single handedly won these games... Well I remember it a little differently... I remember an ineffective Ben in the 1st and 2nd quarters...showing up in the 4th quarter in a close game...and winning it at the end... that is what I remember... and none of that would have been possible if the defense didn't keep us around until the offense found a way to score.

The stats don't lie either... they support what I'm saying... our offense does not put up points like other top 10 offenses do... we are typically average at putting up points compared to the rest of the NFL. Yet our defense is typically in the top 10 in giving up points. Say what you want...but bottom line is it's all about scoring. You give the offense a pass and expect perfection out of the defense.

[Steelers5895]

Originally Posted by madtowndrunkard

The thing is.. you are pointing to rare occurrences... the vast majority of games were won by the defense.... The idea that Ben single handedly won these games... Well I remember it a little differently... I remember an ineffective Ben in the 1st and 2nd quarters...showing up in the 4th quarter in a close game...and winning it at the end... that is what I remember... and none of that would have been possible if the defense didn't keep us around until the offense found a way to score.

The stats don't lie either... they support what I'm saying... our offense does not put up points like other top 10 offenses do... we are typically average at putting up points compared to the rest of the NFL. Yet our defense is typically in the top 10 in giving up points. Say what you want...but bottom line is it's all about scoring. You give the offense a pass and expect perfection out of the defense.

and that is why ben is considered a championship quarterback. when he needed to be great he was. I cant say that for the defense.

the rare accorances? those are all playoff games. the non rare occurances were regualr season blown leads.

I dont get our offense a pass. When you dont get sacks and turnovers you give the offense long fields. How many times did we pin an offense inside the 10 and let them turn around field positon. that happens a ton and has as far back as I can remember.

[Steeldude]

Originally Posted by Steelers5895

I know I am going to get killed for this but if you look at history, Dick Lebeau's defenses are not championship defenses. (Steel Curtain, Doomsday, 85 Bears, Bellicheck from the Giants and early Pat Years, 2000 Ravens).

Sure, he has 2 Super Bowl wins but for top regular season ranked defenses, none were dominant playoff/Super Bowl defenses. in fact you can go back to when he was the D Coordinator for the bengals.

The Steelers defense was helped a ton in Super Bowl 40 by documented poor officiating. Not saying we would have lost but Seattle would have made a better run of it.

Big Ben bailed out the defense in Super Bowl 43.

Packers had their way in Super Bowl 45.

Plus the 49ers were able to come back on his defense when he was in Cincy.

My point is, I am sick of the high regular season rankings and come playoffs whenever we play a high powered offense we can't stop them. In fact, Tebow tore this defense to shreds.

That being said, I think its time to go in a new direction. Add the fact his defenses are impossible for young players to grasp for 2-3 years, I dont see this changing.

I must rather see a 4-3 being run by a innovative young DC or a new style 3-4 in hopes to get us back to where we need quicker. As much as our offense was the problem in 2012, with Ben that can be fixed quick. The defense with its age and under-developing young players is going to continue to not pressure the qb, not creat turnovers, give up leads to lesser teams for a while.

The problem is in the post-season the better QBs are playing. Generally, the Steelers do not do well vs the better QBs in the NFL. That's not to say they haven't done well in some games, but overall they are generally eaten up by the Mannings and Bradys. The talent/ability on defense is stagnant with barely any signs of improvement. Woodley was a reach when they gave him that absurd contract. The Steelers and many fans were fooled because he had some sacks. There is more to being a LB than sacks. Polamalu is old and injury prone, as is Harrison. The problem is they are still the two best players on defense. Hampton was kept too long. Kiesel is overrated by fans and has been for most of his career. Taylor still has a few miles left on him, but again he slowing down. Clark is doing well, for the most part, but he is old also. Timmons is pretty much the only bright spot on defense. The Steelers may need to do an overhaul, not a reload.

Currently there is really no one on the team to take the spots of Harrison and Polamalu.