Pittsburgh Sports Philosophy

[VaDave]

Sluggo,

Winning teams don't fall apart. We've had 20+ years of this annual failling to hold together, and truly have not seen much progress towards being mediocure, let alone becoming a winning club.

Do you see any pitchers on the level of Drabek, Zane Smith, or Bob Walk on our staff? Any catchers even close to a Mike LaValiver pardon the spelling? An infielder like Jay Bell?? An impact player at 3rd base on the level of a Bobby Bonnia ( again, pardon the spelling) or even Sid Bream??? A Leyland caliber manager?

It took Sid Thrift all of 3 years to put these pieces together for a championship run. Sorry, I'm not buying the Pirates are a team on the rise, and we need to be patient.

Truth be told, current management is not even remotely interested in fielding a competitive team. At the sametime the've been claiming they are building future success through the farm sysytem, they have been woeful in developing home grown talent. Out of the last twenty years we've managed to develop exactly one blue chip player, McCutchen, and he wouldn't even be a franchise player anywhere else in MLB.

[sluggermatt15]

Originally Posted by VaDave

Sluggo,

Winning teams don't fall apart. We've had 20+ years of this annual failling to hold together, and truly have not seen much progress towards being mediocure, let alone becoming a winning club.

Do you see any pitchers on the level of Drabek, Zane Smith, or Bob Walk on our staff? Any catchers even close to a Mike LaValiver pardon the spelling? An infielder like Jay Bell?? An impact player at 3rd base on the level of a Bobby Bonnia ( again, pardon the spelling) or even Sid Bream??? A Leyland caliber manager?

It took Sid Thrift all of 3 years to put these pieces together for a championship run. Sorry, I'm not buying the Pirates are a team on the rise, and we need to be patient.

Truth be told, current management is not even remotely interested in fielding a competitive team. At the sametime the've been claiming they are building future success through the farm sysytem, they have been woeful in developing home grown talent. Out of the last twenty years we've managed to develop exactly one blue chip player, McCutchen, and he wouldn't even be a franchise player anywhere else in MLB.

Winning teams don't know how to fall apart? You are correct. Winning teams know how to get it done. They find ways to win the big games and come through with clutch hits, pitches, and plays. I agree.

No I don't notice any of those caliber of players on the current Pirates roster. But IMO teams don't need big name star players to win. Look at the Oakland A's and Tampa Bay Rays as well as the Baltimore Orioles (2012). They don't spend $100 million on payroll every year, and somehow they find ways to come up with winning records. Oakland and Tampa have demonstrated small market teams can win but don't necessarily NEED big superstars to do so. I think if the Pirates big players - McCutchen, Walker, Jones, et al. can continue to play at high levels and stay out of the injury syndrome, this team has a chance to win more games than it loses. But it's the struggles these guys must learn from that can lead them to the next level. They've been on the team the last 2 years. They know how to lose, but they also know how to play .500+ ball. If they can find the winning way, there is a chance.

[VaDave]

Have you actually watched those other small market teams? Little things that are a noticable difference, they always hit the cuttoff man, they hit behind the runner, they get their bunts down cleanly, they can execute the hit an run, fundementals, that you just don't see with the Pirates.

One other thing you don't see, 6-7 batters in a line up batting below the Medoza line, and wondering where the offense is. Seriously, who they trying to kid?

On to pitchers, the training regimine is below standard which shows up on how many pitchers come out of our farm system with either blown out arms, a 10- 15 mph drop in velocity, or both. It's been proven that increasing long toss training from 90 feet, the Pirate standard, to 150-200 feet, increases both velocity, stamina, and significantly reduces injury factors.

IMO, until the FO gets serious about trainning standards in the farm system, it is hopeless to expect much of anything from this club. I wouldn't expect much hope of these tightwads opening the bank to bring in some first rate FA talent either.

[stb_steeler]

Originally Posted by Blackout

"The standard is the standard." - Mike Tomlin
"We didn't get to our game" - Sidney Crosby

And not sure what the Pirates is, maybe:

"The standard is we never get to our game" - Robert Nutting

I thought Tomlins saying was,
Its not what you can do but what your willing to do? lol

[sluggermatt15]

Originally Posted by VaDave

Have you actually watched those other small market teams? Little things that are a noticable difference, they always hit the cuttoff man, they hit behind the runner, they get their bunts down cleanly, they can execute the hit an run, fundementals, that you just don't see with the Pirates.

One other thing you don't see, 6-7 batters in a line up batting below the Medoza line, and wondering where the offense is. Seriously, who they trying to kid?

On to pitchers, the training regimine is below standard which shows up on how many pitchers come out of our farm system with either blown out arms, a 10- 15 mph drop in velocity, or both. It's been proven that increasing long toss training from 90 feet, the Pirate standard, to 150-200 feet, increases both velocity, stamina, and significantly reduces injury factors.

IMO, until the FO gets serious about trainning standards in the farm system, it is hopeless to expect much of anything from this club. I wouldn't expect much hope of these tightwads opening the bank to bring in some first rate FA talent either.

Yes I have watched those teams play. They have very strong fundamentals in the skills you pointed out. Their coaching and managing is superior to that of the Pirates, but you don't need a Jim Leyland type manager or big superstars to be like them - THAT is my point.

I fully agree management has not handled the Pirates in the proper manner for the past 20 years. I attribute this to the major reason why the team has struggled. And though I remain completely optimistic, and very much a fan and enthusiast, in reality the team will not be at the next level until they have the right men running the show. Will that ever happen? I am not certain.

[VaDave]

Originally Posted by sluggermatt15

Yes I have watched those teams play. They have very strong fundamentals in the skills you pointed out. Their coaching and managing is superior to that of the Pirates, but you don't need a Jim Leyland type manager or big superstars to be like them - THAT is my point.

I fully agree management has not handled the Pirates in the proper manner for the past 20 years. I attribute this to the major reason why the team has struggled. And though I remain completely optimistic, and very much a fan and enthusiast, in reality the team will not be at the next level until they have the right men running the show. Will that ever happen? I am not certain.

I hear you. I've been a long time follower of the Pirates, since the 50's. The drive home from church growing up always had the Joe L Brown show on the radio. They did such a good job of keeping the fan informed on who was doing what. Yeah, the gunner would throw some soft questions at him, but he didn't shrink away from telling it like it was.

Frankly, the club hasn't been the same since the Galbreith family sold it to McClatchy, who totally liquidated anything of value that was not in plain sight. Nutting hasn't been much better.

I hear the words, be patient, that they are trying to build from within, but the product our farm system is cranking out leaves little to be desired. I honestly believe we are signing good enough talent, it's just that our player development sucks, and will continue to suck until we invest in a workable system.

Aa a fan, I was thrilled at the first 5 months of last season. But you had a bunch of guys that were playing way over their heads, and eventually, the laws of average caught up with them.

ERAs crept up ( again proper conditioning issue), key injuries, RBIs went down due to a lack of batting averages, not to mention you best player went in the tank offensively for the last month of the year. In all fairness, there was nobody on either side of Cutch in the lineup that would have scared any MLB pitcher which undoubtedly had an effect.

IMO, the outlook for this team is at best a .500 club, but with our pitching staff , several of whom are coming off of major injuries, getting up there age wise, or never amounted to much of anything in the first place, coupled to a slew of batters that are going to bat .250 or less, with little or no power, I wouldn't be counting on a winning season this year.

[sluggermatt15]

I agree with you, Dave. You make some great points. Player development is a key aspect of building a successful franchise. The biggest evidence of the Pirates payer development is that they end up trading all their young stars away, or they leave for more $. It's really a tragedy for the fans to watch. Everyone gets excited for the next player to perform well at the big league level, and when they do, that player ends up leaving.

I don't know what it's going to take to turn that around. New ownership or not. But I tend to agree that it will be the same old Bucs until that changes. I think that ownership sees that it is doing something positive due to the winning portions of the last 2 seasons. They can use that point as to defend themselves.. what do you think?

[VaDave]

The sad thing is the club is doing very well....., from the clubs perspective. The long term capital gain since McClatchy and Nutting's initial investment is nothing short of phenoninal. We should all be so fortunate that our 401ks grew this much.

That's why when I hear the words small market, we are broke, don't have the money, and the like, I go nuts. LOL!!! They have plenty of money, right down the streeet at PNC bank where loan officer would GLADLY lend them a $50-$100 mill or so to land some top level talent. With current attendance levels for a losing squad, can you imagine what revenue would be like with an actual competitive club.

The second thing they need to do, is to find broadcasters that can sell. Bob Prince had no peer in that regard. Some how, when the old Gunner said "Bases Loaded for the Great Roberto" there was an anticipation that good things were about to happen....Listening to Bob Walk at times is about as exciting as watching moss grow on a tree. Knowlegable, yes, passion, no.

. Maybe Prince was a little too good, his radiocasts were so enjoyable, so descriptive, I could visualize the game in my head, so why bother going to the game.

Anyway, I always enjoy talking about the Buccos with good fan like yourself. How long have you been at it?

[sluggermatt15]

Originally Posted by VaDave

The sad thing is the club is doing very well....., from the clubs perspective. The long term capital gain since McClatchy and Nutting's initial investment is nothing short of phenoninal. We should all be so fortunate that our 401ks grew this much.

That's why when I hear the words small market, we are broke, don't have the money, and the like, I go nuts. LOL!!! They have plenty of money, right down the streeet at PNC bank where loan officer would GLADLY lend them a $50-$100 mill or so to land some top level talent. With current attendance levels for a losing squad, can you imagine what revenue would be like with an actual competitive club.

The second thing they need to do, is to find broadcasters that can sell. Bob Prince had no peer in that regard. Some how, when the old Gunner said "Bases Loaded for the Great Roberto" there was an anticipation that good things were about to happen....Listening to Bob Walk at times is about as exciting as watching moss grow on a tree. Knowlegable, yes, passion, no.

. Maybe Prince was a little too good, his radiocasts were so enjoyable, so descriptive, I could visualize the game in my head, so why bother going to the game.

Anyway, I always enjoy talking about the Buccos with good fan like yourself. How long have you been at it?

I a youngin, in my mid-20s, Dave! haha I've been following the Pirates closely since PNC Park opened, but have been attending games since the mid-90s when my parents would take me to games at Three Rivers. I love the Buccos, win or lose, and it just kills me to see them lose every year. I anxiously await, and maybe foolishly believe they will finally have that winning season. But hey that's part of being a fan. Teams go through stretches of winning, the Pirates have definitely had their stretches and moments of success, but losing is part of the game too. IMO the real fans stick with a team regardless if they win or lose.

I agree about the spending, it's not like the Pirates are losing $. They make a decent profit every year. Problem is the owners don't spend it. And we all wonder why they don't do anything every year. Sad aspect if you ask me.

You're not a fan of the announcers, eh? They're OKAY. I miss Lanny Frattere, I thought he had a pretty good voice. Pretty knowledgeable about the game, had his phrases and cliches, and very informative during broadcasts.

[Quackjack]

Sorry, but I could give less of a damn about the Pens or Pirates.

Be happy those who do, 2/3 of your teams are great franchises.