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Old 02-22-2013, 09:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

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Originally Posted by Fire Arians View Post
chance warmack if he's still there at 17 might be a likely pick.
While I don't think they need Warmack, if he's there, they HAVE to draft him. If he played OT, he'd be the #1 pick. The bias against OGs will make him drop... but, he is the BEST O-lineman in this draft.

Regardless, depth is needed. I say that two late-round O-linemen need to be drafted... such as Khalid Holmes & Joe Madsen (OC/OG hybrids).
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

I'm tired of seeing the running backs get the blame for the lack of production in the run game. Redman is an expert at making something out of nothing, and nothing is exactly what our OL gives in support of the running game. And Dwyer is really able to break things open, given a hole. Those two are perfectly adequate NFL backs; we don't need to draft a back early, because honestly, what are the chances of identifying one of those rare backs that doesn't need a hole? Every NFL back is better with a hole. But granted, we need bodies behind those two for injuries. (And I assume Mendy is gone, and Batch still won't be able to contribute).

And I'm tired of the talk about drafting WRs. Sure, they're exciting, but I'd like to see our QB have an NFL pocket, if only for 1-2 seconds. Every WR looks better when the ball gets to the QB's hands before a LB does.

Anyone who looks around the league and watches other NFL teams knows that our OL is a multi-year joke, and it's been so for about six years now. It's gotten to the point where we don't even remember what a normal NFL offense looks like - to the point where our head coach almost accepts it as the standard. Well, it's not standard for the defense to hold a party in the offensive backfield every other play; other teams don't have that problem. So forget those skill positions for now. We need improvements in the infrastructure positions first, and the skill positions will look better and better.

And finally, I'm not exempting the coaching here, not at all. The jury is still out on Haley, especially with all the injuries, but I'm looking for real improvement. I'm looking to Haley to try and figure out how to build plays and schemes that accomodate our weaknesses. If we don't have a true NFL caliber OL, then we need to figure out how to work around the deficiencies. If we want to just hike the ball and let the QB run around and make something up, well we had Arians for that. Let's see some coaching that makes our line appear to be an NFL line.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

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I think we need the "sky is falling cat picture". 4 first or 2nd round picks in 2 years with Pouncey, DeCastro, Gilbert and Adams.............and the line is terrible.
Yeah, thanks for the comment, but would you care to add some thoughtful content?
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:32 PM   #14
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

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While I don't think they need Warmack, if he's there, they HAVE to draft him. If he played OT, he'd be the #1 pick. The bias against OGs will make him drop... but, he is the BEST O-lineman in this draft.

Regardless, depth is needed. I say that two late-round O-linemen need to be drafted... such as Khalid Holmes & Joe Madsen (OC/OG hybrids).
I agree there is a decent chance that Warmack will be available at 17. But I would not say picking him is a 'must'. Let's see who drops first before making that kind of statement.

And there's reason why he isn't a OT. Even if he is, Luke Joeckel is still better.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

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Yeah, thanks for the comment, but would you care to add some thoughtful content?
I'll throw my two cents in because we usually agree with each other but I'm not sure I agree with you here.

Pouncey, DeCastro, Adams and Gilbert is a good offensive line at worst. At best, that line is the best in the NFL. Remember how high we all were on Gilbert two years ago? Or, at least, most fans were. The guy has the potential to be an All-Pro & Pro Bowl quality Left Tackle in the NFL. He has fantastic lateral movement but his technique could be improved. Fortunately, technique is something that can be coached. Adams is almost a mirror image of Gilbert, but on the right side. Great lateral movement, good strength and the potential of this kid is absolutely phenomenal. He too needs to work on his technique but again, coaching should fix this. They're both built to be Zone Block offensive linemen.

Moving onto our "crown jewel" offensive linemen - Pouncey and DeCastro. These two will probably be perennial All-Pro & Pro Bowl players on this line for a decade. There's been a lot of bullshit talk about how Pouncey is overrated and how Mike is a much better player. This kind of talk should be laughed at and overlooked because, well, it's written for headlines. He's a Pro Bowl Center for a reason. Period. Now, DeCastro flashed last year in the very limited amount he got snaps. The only player he struggled against was Geno Atkins and let's be honest here, show me a guard that doesn't struggle against Atkins, let alone a rookie that is being asked to take him one-on-one.

The biggest problem on our offensive line isn't lack of talent or depth, it's lack of health. When our guys are healthy, they're one of the top units in the league. They need better communication and time to built chemistry with one another, but that will come in time.

Our line is fine. We don't need to spend a first round pick on an offensive linemen when there's other, more glaring holes on our roster. I'm especially excited at the prospect of Beachum and his potential in a ZBS given his athleticism. He needs to work on his strength and technique (where have we heard that before?) but those will come in the weight room and coaching, respectively.

Give our guys some time. They'll come around for Ben.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:03 PM   #16
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

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I agree there is a decent chance that Warmack will be available at 17. But I would not say picking him is a 'must'. Let's see who drops first before making that kind of statement.

And there's reason why he isn't a OT. Even if he is, Luke Joeckel is still better.
I probably should have typed "HAVE to 'consider' drafting him"... because, you're right: if DeMontre Moore is there... or Jarvis Jones...

Eh... sometimes people play inside, because they can pull. Doesn't mean they're less if an athlete/not the better player.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

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I probably should have typed "HAVE to 'consider' drafting him"... because, you're right: if DeMontre Moore is there... or Jarvis Jones...

Eh... sometimes people play inside, because they can pull. Doesn't mean they're less if an athlete/not the better player.
Let put it this way. If his playing at LT is as good as him as a guard, he will be the LT. It doesn't matter if he call pull.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

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I'll throw my two cents in because we usually agree with each other but I'm not sure I agree with you here.

Pouncey, DeCastro, Adams and Gilbert is a good offensive line at worst. At best, that line is the best in the NFL. Remember how high we all were on Gilbert two years ago? Or, at least, most fans were. The guy has the potential to be an All-Pro & Pro Bowl quality Left Tackle in the NFL. He has fantastic lateral movement but his technique could be improved. Fortunately, technique is something that can be coached. Adams is almost a mirror image of Gilbert, but on the right side. Great lateral movement, good strength and the potential of this kid is absolutely phenomenal. He too needs to work on his technique but again, coaching should fix this. They're both built to be Zone Block offensive linemen.

Moving onto our "crown jewel" offensive linemen - Pouncey and DeCastro. These two will probably be perennial All-Pro & Pro Bowl players on this line for a decade. There's been a lot of bullshit talk about how Pouncey is overrated and how Mike is a much better player. This kind of talk should be laughed at and overlooked because, well, it's written for headlines. He's a Pro Bowl Center for a reason. Period. Now, DeCastro flashed last year in the very limited amount he got snaps. The only player he struggled against was Geno Atkins and let's be honest here, show me a guard that doesn't struggle against Atkins, let alone a rookie that is being asked to take him one-on-one.

The biggest problem on our offensive line isn't lack of talent or depth, it's lack of health. When our guys are healthy, they're one of the top units in the league. They need better communication and time to built chemistry with one another, but that will come in time.

Our line is fine. We don't need to spend a first round pick on an offensive linemen when there's other, more glaring holes on our roster. I'm especially excited at the prospect of Beachum and his potential in a ZBS given his athleticism. He needs to work on his strength and technique (where have we heard that before?) but those will come in the weight room and coaching, respectively.

Give our guys some time. They'll come around for Ben.
Actually, I think we largely agree here as well, but you're just a tad more optimistic. Definitely we agree on Pouncey, DeCastro and Adams (and admittedly, Adams is a bet - but we're both betting the same way). Our points of divergence are: (1) Gilbert took a big step backward last year, one that I'm finding difficult to ignore; and (2) We don't have the fifth OL position filled. ( Why, oh why do we seem to have so many head-cases on this team? it would be so nice to see Gilbert get his mind straight.

Anyway, given that we only have 3.5 out of 5 slots clearly filled with real talent, and we have no depth, I'm just saying that we're not done yet. Even without injuries, we don't have an entire NFL starting OL - not yet. No NFL OL can be really great with only 3.5ish NFL starters. And obviously, we need that depth, because injuries will happen.

But if Glibert gets his head right, and if Beechum steps up bigtime at OG, and if we can somehow find some depth (or avoid injuries) - then yes, we could have a great OL. But those are a lot of ifs. To be conservative, I think we do need to recognize that Gilbert's development has trended the wrong way, and that NFL-caliber depth will be required.

In my humble opinion, it just shows how deep we let the hole become while we collected baubles (WRs and Mendy) and LBs (somewhat ineffectively), and other things (but kudos on improving the CB situation, which also looked dismal a few years ago).

Also, I wonder about what might have been with Kraig Ubrik. If we hadn't screwed up the coaching side there, we'd really be solid. Instead, we somehow kept the very soft Ramon Foster.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

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thanks for the post, I've been waiting for it. I agree Colon is going to be gone, love his fire and everything, but unfortunately he does commit to many untimely penalties, is injury prone, and his price is too high.

I still say Starks will be on this team by the end of preseason.
Thanks for the thanks!

I can only hope that if Starks is on the team, we somehow get the good Starks of recent vintage - not the one that made us all shake our heads for so long, wondering why there was no pride, no effort. The man has a body custom-built by GOD for NFL OT. He could have been great if he wanted to.

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Doesn't cutting Colon leave a lot of dead money? I thought I remember reading it was around $5 million.
I don't know, and actually, maybe that screws up my analysis. I've been assuming Colon needs to go for cap reasons. If not, and he's still here, it's almost as if he needs to start just based on pure ability and the big hole at LG. But I'm so ready to move on from that unfulfilled potential and all those "unforced errors"...
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: Offensive Line is STILL a big problem

My pick if we're going to use a 1st rounder is Jonathan Cooper from UNC. Might not be as strong as Womack, but has much better feet and mobility. He's a much better ZBS prospect IMO.
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