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Old 07-03-2013, 10:17 AM   #51
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Default Re: States consider drug testing welfare recipients

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The Florida law has already been struck down by two courts for violating the 5th Amendment in regards to unreasonable search and seizure. .
Link to the 11th Circuit decision here

The question is not whether drug use is detrimental to the goals of the TANF program, which it might be. Instead, the only pertinent inquiry is whether there is a substantial special need for mandatory, suspicionless drug testing of TANF recipients when there is no immediate or direct threat to public safety, when those being searched are not directly involved in the frontlines of drug interdiction, when there is no public school setting where the government has a responsibility for the care and tutelage of its young students, or when there are no dire consequences or grave risk of imminent physical harm as a result of waiting to obtain a warrant if a TANF recipient, or anyone else for that matter, is suspected of violating the law. We conclude that, on this record, the answer to that question of whether there is a substantial special need for mandatory suspicionless drug testing is “no.”


http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/201115258.pdf
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:18 AM   #52
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Default Re: States consider drug testing welfare recipients

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Let me ask you this. If you had nothing of value and no prospects, you would never be able to go out for that lobster dinner or whatever, wouldn't you grow some pot and smoke it just for some pleasure in life? I would. I don't begrudge the poor a buzz. The idea you have isn't bad so cut off the check as you say but I think it's still cheaper for society to go that next step and help someone get clean and employed if they want it.
Of course we should help people get clean and employed. I never stated we shouldn't. But if it's going to come down to your job or your drug habit, and you choose your drug habit, then you don't deserve the assistance, and need to go on to the next step of either going to rehab or sucking it up and learning how to be self-reliant. If that means turning to a life of crime, then have fun in jail. I just don't want to pay for someone while they can't even take simple steps to better themselves.

I'm not advocating throwing drug users in jail simply because they are drug users...I'm a supporter of across the board decriminalization. I'm advocating accountability.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:26 AM   #53
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Default Re: States consider drug testing welfare recipients

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Of course we should help people get clean and employed. I never stated we shouldn't. But if it's going to come down to your job or your drug habit, and you choose your drug habit, then you don't deserve the assistance, and need to go on to the next step of either going to rehab or sucking it up and learning how to be self-reliant. If that means turning to a life of crime, then have fun in jail. I just don't want to pay for someone while they can't even take simple steps to better themselves.
But you then have to take the kids. That's pricey. Jail is expensive, and they do get food there. Some of these people aren't all there mentally, some are damaged from war, some from bad chemicals and bad choices. The system doesn't weed out the cause of the particular problem very well since that costs money and there isn't the public will to pay for lifetime treatment for the mentally incapacitated. Whatever the system, it has costs. The kind of filtering needed to know for sure who the ones are who deserve to be pitied vs the ones who deserve to be flushed costs more than is available. But I'm for little tweaks here and there like you suggested. It the "easy answer" people I have a problem with. All the problems with easy answers were solved last week.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:38 AM   #54
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Default Re: States consider drug testing welfare recipients

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But you then have to take the kids. That's pricey. Jail is expensive, and they do get food there. Some of these people aren't all there mentally, some are damaged from war, some from bad chemicals and bad choices. The system doesn't weed out the cause of the particular problem very well since that costs money and there isn't the public will to pay for lifetime treatment for the mentally incapacitated. Whatever the system, it has costs. The kind of filtering needed to know for sure who the ones who deserve to be pitied vs the ones who deserve to be flushed costs more than is available. But I'm for little tweaks here and there like you suggested. It the "easy answer" people I have a problem with. All the problems with easy answers were solved last week.
Well that goes into a whole myriad of other problems. I'll take it point by point.

If someone has that kind of drug habit, chances are the kids are going to be taken away anyhow. No cost difference. Plus, I don't mind my taxes going to something good like helping out kids who've done nothing wrong. They'll have a better chance of becoming contributing members of society this way.

For the people who aren't there mentally, as I said, for those that are too mentally or physically disabled to find work, there are a number of programs to help them. Those programs as it stands need tweeking, especially our mental health facilities. I'm fine with taxes going to help those as well. If they are truly mentally ill, they shouldn't be in a welfare office to begin with. They should be handled through a different medium. That's a whole other system though that needs dealt with.

As for having the money to pay for stuff like this...we have the money, it's just being wasted on needless government programs, and there are too many of those to list here. Cutting down on military spending and ending the war on drugs could probably by themselves pay for making the welfare system more functional.

These ARE easy solutions, but we are talking about the gov't here, so common sense isn't exactly at the forefront.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:43 AM   #55
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Default Re: States consider drug testing welfare recipients

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Well that goes into a whole myriad of other problems. I'll take it point by point.

If someone has that kind of drug habit, chances are the kids are going to be taken away anyhow. No cost difference. Plus, I don't mind my taxes going to something good like helping out kids who've done nothing wrong. They'll have a better chance of becoming contributing members of society this way.

For the people who aren't there mentally, as I said, for those that are too mentally or physically disabled to find work, there are a number of programs to help them. Those programs as it stands need tweeking, especially our mental health facilities. I'm fine with taxes going to help those as well. If they are truly mentally ill, they shouldn't be in a welfare office to begin with. They should be handled through a different medium. That's a whole other system though that needs dealt with.

As for having the money to pay for stuff like this...we have the money, it's just being wasted on needless government programs, and there are too many of those to list here. Cutting down on military spending and ending the war on drugs could probably by themselves pay for making the welfare system more functional.

These ARE easy solutions, but we are talking about the gov't here, so common sense isn't exactly at the forefront.

In your response you were fine with your tax money going for things which I agree with but will not pass a budget fight.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:44 AM   #56
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Default Re: States consider drug testing welfare recipients

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In your response you were fine with your tax money going for things which I agree with but will not pass a budget fight.
That's why I should just be supreme leader. Congress is too fucked to be effective anymore.

See? Easy.


Seriously though, I know they wouldn't pass the budget fight...but the solutions are right there in the gov'ts face, and they're solutions that will work for everyone (except the junkies who would rather commit crime than find work, obviously).
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:49 AM   #57
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Default Re: States consider drug testing welfare recipients

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That's why I should just be supreme leader. Congress is too fucked to be effective anymore.

See? Easy.


Seriously though, I know they wouldn't pass the budget fight...but the solutions are right there in the gov'ts face, and they're solutions that will work for everyone (except the junkies who would rather commit crime than find work, obviously).
I'll work on your campaign.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:06 AM   #58
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Default Re: States consider drug testing welfare recipients

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