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Old 02-15-2014, 04:09 PM   #21
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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The SI book is great for the writing and more so for the photos

As you note, the action in SB XLIII of any significance was limited to the Harrison 100 yard pick six until all hell broke loose with 2 TDs and a safety (including a great catch and run by Fitzgerald) by the Cards followed by the Steelers' drive

But other games ranked higher were famous when about the only interesting thing that happened was the last drive and, in one case, not even that

The #1 game in the SI book is the 1958 NFL championship between the Giants and the Colts. That game was 17-14 in the 4th quarter when Unitas conducted a famous 2 minute drive for a tying FG, which sent the game into the first OT for a championship game 23-17 Colts win. The reason that is the "greatest game of all time" is that it was an entertaining 4th quarter of a championship game early in the TV era which involved a New York team.

The #3 game was the Dallas-Green Bay Ice Bowl. In that game Green Bay blew a 14-0 first half lead but won on a legendary drive at the end of the game to win 21-17.

The #4 game is the Jets beating the Colts 16-7 in Super Bowl III.

So a lot of where a game is ranked depends on how great the media wants it to be in the post-game coverage. The 3 games above were great in large part because two involved New York teams and the other involved a legendary team.

OTOH the #2 game in the SI book is the epic 1981 playoffs game between Miami and San Diego that the Chargers won 41-38 in OT. That was a remarkable game.

Greatest game for me not on the SI list is the 2 OT Chiefs-Dolphins Christmas Day 1971 playoff game. Game involved a once and a future Super Bowl team.

Don Banks of Si.com appears to agree with me in this 2011 article written on the 40th anniversary of that game

It lasted nearly 83 mesmerizing minutes of game action, a six-quarter see-saw extravaganza that stretched from mid-afternoon into the dark December evening, with enough drama, plot twists and momentum shifts to fill a novel.

It's easily my most vivid NFL memory of childhood, and thoughts of that thrilling 27-24 Miami victory in the AFC Divisional playoff in Kansas City -- won on Garo Yepremian's 37-yard field goal roughly midway through the second overtime...still the most thrilling NFL playoff game ever for my money


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz2tQaIZObO


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz2tQa9AFyk
Great recall Dan.
One of the most amazing games I've ever watched.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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That has to be the #1 most overrated game of all time.

In terms of 'major upset' and 'quality of the game', SB XLII surpasses it.

The whole mystique of 'The Guarantee' and the narrative that it led to the merger are what gives it such historical cache.

It's a great game and all, but not better than other ones which were more 'back and forth' or otherwise a better overall game (such as the two you cite).



Excellent points.
The game itself? Yes.

The repercussions? No. There probably wouldn't be a SB without that game.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:21 PM   #23
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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Great recall Dan.
One of the most amazing games I've ever watched.
I was like Don Banks - I kept getting up and down from the Christmas dinner table to go back into the family room to watch the Chiefs-Dolphins OT - I was a big Chiefs fan in the late 60s-early 70s since I needed a team to root for (in addition to the Steelers) that might actually make the playoffs (even then I hated the Raiders) - starting in 1972 I no longer needed to root for anyone other than the Steelers

Chiefs would have won in regulation but Jan Stenerud, one of the greatest kickers of all time, missed a chip shot FG at the end of regulation
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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Coaches: Chuck Noll comes in at four behind Bill Walsh, Paul Brown, and Vince Lombardi.
Suck it, Bill Belichick!!

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Oh fuck that.
Honestly, you don't want your back to him at all if you value your life.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:31 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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Whoa.

We're just going to have to disagree here.

Ward's tough as nails and a great all-around WR, but he wasn't as 'dynamic' as most of the guys I named.

And the whole 'never had a QB' argument is not unique to him and him alone:

I mean, Sterling Sharpe had the Majik Man and Tomczak throwing to him for most of his career before Favre arrived.

Alworth had John Hadl (who appears to have been good, but is never mentioned in the annals of great QBs).

Largent had Dave Krieg, a 'Hall of very good' QB and Jim Zorn.

Poor Isaac Bruce was stuck with Chris Miller's and Tony Banks' until his sixth season.

Chris Carter had at least seven different QBs throwing him passes between 1990-2001. Tim Brown had at least six from 1988-2003.

Larry Fitz only had three years of Warner before he retired; the rest of his QBs have been Leinart's, McCown's, Skelton's, Lindell's, Kolb's and Palmers...

None of this is to denigrate Hines, merely point out how WR has primarily been a position valued for play-making [and those other guys did it better under similar conditions]. In those terms Hines is maybe in the top-20 all time (if he's lucky).

Most of Hines' 'edge' vs. the competition is built on the reputation that he was a 'rugged' receiver.

It's what made him great, for sure, but those other guys... *whistle* They're what I think of first when I think of the position.
While Tim Browns and cris Carter's QBs weren't HOFers, Randall Cunningham, Dante Culpepper, and Rich Gannon weren't slouches.

If these receivers are as good as you say they are, a "hall of very good" should be all they need. What good are these guys if they can only show these talents with super duper QBs?

And it's not like Ben is a GOAT. He's certainly my personal fav but he'll be the first one to tell you he's not Johnny U.

Some of these receivers years may have been great when their QBs showed up, I don't think a lot of these guys were known.

Sterling sharpe, Isaac bruce , and fitz(no disrespect to them) may have only had Favre and warner for a few years but those were some pretty damn good years.
Favre was Favre and Warner was a multi MVP as well. Fitz alone hasn't done much since Warner.

And no offense to sharpe, but I just can't recognize a guy that had as short a career as he did. Same with Terrell Davis.

I'd make the case Hines down years were better than most the guys you mentioned. Down years referring to when they didn't have their "marquee QBs". Especially when bens early years weren't the best for him as an individual stat.

And when lynn Swann and stallworth played for your team, it's pretty impressive for you to be the GOAT steeler WR.

And GOAT blocking receiver means something.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:17 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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The game itself? Yes.

The repercussions? No. There probably wouldn't be a SB without that game.
You nailed it.

People get confused by the larger narrative.

Both 'the greatest game ever played' and 'the Ice Bowl' were both historically important and incredible games in their own right.

'The Guarantee's' reputation is all 'upset!' and/or 'it saved the AFL!'

It's the battle of New Orleans of football games.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:51 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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While Tim Browns and cris Carter's QBs weren't HOFers, Randall Cunningham, Dante Culpepper, and Rich Gannon weren't slouches.

If these receivers are as good as you say they are, a "hall of very good" should be all they need. What good are these guys if they can only show these talents with super duper QBs?

And it's not like Ben is a GOAT. He's certainly my personal fav but he'll be the first one to tell you he's not Johnny U.

Some of these receivers years may have been great when their QBs showed up, I don't think a lot of these guys were known.

Sterling sharpe, Isaac bruce , and fitz(no disrespect to them) may have only had Favre and warner for a few years but those were some pretty damn good years.
Favre was Favre and Warner was a multi MVP as well. Fitz alone hasn't done much since Warner.

And no offense to sharpe, but I just can't recognize a guy that had as short a career as he did. Same with Terrell Davis.

I'd make the case Hines down years were better than most the guys you mentioned. Down years referring to when they didn't have their "marquee QBs". Especially when bens early years weren't the best for him as an individual stat.

And when lynn Swann and stallworth played for your team, it's pretty impressive for you to be the GOAT steeler WR.

And GOAT blocking receiver means something.
I am pretty sure you are just looking through your coal, iron ore and scrap steel colored glasses.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:52 PM   #28
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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While Tim Browns and cris Carter's QBs weren't HOFers, Randall Cunningham, Dante Culpepper, and Rich Gannon weren't slouches.

If these receivers are as good as you say they are, a "hall of very good" should be all they need. What good are these guys if they can only show these talents with super duper QBs?
We're never going to agree here, but I don't get your logic.

Again, Brown and Carter had six+ QBs (counting back ups probably closer to nine) throwing to them throughout their careers (compared to Hines' four or maybe five).

If your case for Hines is that he excelled without a premier (or even 'good' QB), then why don't we give the same or extra kudos to Brown/Carter for excelling for the same and then different reasons?

Putting up top-5/10 all-times #s with a variety of QBs clearly demonstrates that no matter who was throwing them the ball they were legit talents.

You can't use ye olde, 'they were only good because of their QBs!' argument. It holds no water since they were good no matter who their QB was.

The likes of Jay Schroeder, Steve Buereline, Jeff Hostetler, Jeff George and Donald Hollas weren't 'hall of very good'. They were 'hall of game managers'.

Likewise for Carter's QBs: (young) Rich Gannon, Mike McMahon, Warren Moon, Brad Johnson, Randall Cunningham and Jeff George. (While Moon IS a HoF, he was 38 when he QB'd in MIN. Cunningham was 35. That's 'Hall of being put out to pasture'.)

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Sterling sharpe, Isaac bruce , and fitz(no disrespect to them) may have only had Favre and warner for a few years but those were some pretty damn good years.
Favre was Favre and Warner was a multi MVP as well. Fitz alone hasn't done much since Warner.

I'd make the case Hines down years were better than most the guys you mentioned. Down years referring to when they didn't have their "marquee QBs". Especially when bens early years weren't the best for him as an individual stat.
Tim Brown had nine straight years of 1k+ yards. He missed the 10th by 70 yards. Six of those years came before Rich Gannon was his QB.

Cris Carter had eight straight years of 1k+ yards. Only the last one was with a young Dante Culpepper (and five were pre-Moss).

Hines only cracked 1k+ yards six times.... ever. He did post four straight years from 2001-2004 (three different QBs) and missed 1k by 25 yards from 2005-06.

Different receivers/systems, but Hines BEST season (100+ rec, 1300+ yards, 10+ TD) is something Brown nearly did four times (1994, 95, 97, 99).

Even if you discounted their worst two years (to make up for the 'extra years' they have on Hines), both Brown and Carter's stats are better than Hines'.

Isaac Bruce's two best seasons came before Kurt Warner was his QB.

As for Fitz, two of his best seasons came either without Warner throwing the ball to him (2010) or Warner only playing in 10 games (2005).

In 10 years (to Hines' 13), Fitz already has more TDs than Hines and is less than 800 yds and 150 rec away from catching him in those categories. Based on his track record he will surpass yards this year.

His playoff game logs are sick, too. If you average for the same # of games as Hines played (basically multiply them by 3) they blow Hines out of the water (120 rec, 2100 yards, 27 TD). Even as they are, on a per-game basis, they are superior.

I love me some Hines, but he's the Derek Jeter of the NFL WRs.

You can't let the black and gold bias let you believe he is better than he was.

Still a HoFamer, just not top-10 all time. Maybe top-15.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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I am pretty sure you are just looking through your coal, iron ore and scrap steel colored glasses.
Damn straight.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: Sports illustrateds "footballs greatest" features right steelers.

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You nailed it.

People get confused by the larger narrative.

Both 'the greatest game ever played' and 'the Ice Bowl' were both historically important and incredible games in their own right.

'The Guarantee's' reputation is all 'upset!' and/or 'it saved the AFL!'

It's the battle of New Orleans of football games.
How did it save the AFL? The merger was already going through

If it had been the Raiders or Chiefs beating the Colts it would not have been near the story

And what was particularly historic about The Ice Bowl - Cincinnati -San Diego was colder

As for "The Greatest Game Ever Played" it has had that title for 50 years -

Just sayin'
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