SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

[j-dawg]

heap/wilcox over winslow/heiden ...

[tony hipchest]

Originally Posted by Crushzilla

Well... I hate to play Devil's Advocate, but I feel like I must.

I was complaining before about the Steelers getting snubbed, but this time the Ratbirds did. Todd Heap got robbed at number 5. WIlcox isn't amazing, but how can you rank Heap's 70+ receptions and about 800 yards a year over the past two years 5th?? He has been unjustly overlooked.

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the ravens got snubbed???? this is the easiest argument to put to rest. look at the rankings again. the ravens were ranked #6 as a group, and todd heap was ranked #3 behind only gates and gonzalez in the AFC. i dont see the snub unless one feels wilcox is that great. hes not. 31 other teams have a "wicox" on their roster. tuman is easilly better than wilcox and he wasnt even mentionned in the rankings.

Originally Posted by Livinginthe past

As bad as some of the 'anti-Steelers' articles that have been floating about this year (Ben ranked at 17th and the Rooney's at 9) this seems like a total reach the other way. definitely not a "total reach".

Why is Matt Spaeth even getting mentioned? spaeth is arguably the best tight end in the draft last year. the steelers had him as the #1 TE on their board which explains why they couldnt pass on him in the 3rd round. spaeth dropping to 3rd round can be looked at like brady quinn dropping to #22.

More than a few people were spitting feathers when Calvin Johnson showed up in the WR rankings but at least he was a genuine All Star college player - Spaeth is a 3rd round draft pick. i dont think a few people spitting feathers about a wr's individual rankings have any bearing on ranking the steelers TE unit as a whole. TE and WR are 2 completely different positions although spaeth was a collegiate "all star" at his position just the same as calvin was.

I like Heath Miller and think he can be a weapon on offense but reality tells us that he caught for less than 500 yards in his rookie season - then regressed last year to less than 400.

miller didnt regress. his reception numbers did. maybe the coaches did. the o-line definitely did. however his run blocking progressed. he is regarded as one of the finest blocking tight ends in the league. remember were talking about tight ends, whose job is blocking to. it would be different if these rankings were on receivers

Im fully aware that Pittsburgh haven't made the most of their TE's ability to catch the ball in the past, but why are they ranked at No.3? because if you take away gates and gonzales potential hall of fame receiving numbers they clearly have the best unit with the most upside in the league.

The Colts TE's are better by a long way (and actually proven at NFL level) and im not too sure why the Patriots rank as low as No.8 despite having Ben Watson who's production last year improved by 50% on the year before. a "long way", huh? i will refer you to the "why steelers drafted a TE thread" or to nfl.coms "players" section. dallas clark has yet to best millers career high of 39 rec or 6 td in his rookie season. dallas clarks career high in yards (488) is only several more than millers best.

spaeth shattered ben utechts records at minnesota. utecht was a free agent. spaeth who is a bigger specimen was a 1st day pick and the 3rd TE taken in the draft. utecht is in an offense where he and clark started atleast 12 games last year. (no wonder manning is one of the least sacked qb's in the league) spaeth is easilly a better blocker than both clark and utecht. tuman is clearly better than any teams 3rd TE.

ben watson and the pats are right were they should be. unfortunately for him the patriots have this thing called the "patriot way". with the amount of wr's they brought in his numbers will be kept down in hopes of re-signing him on the cheap. there is simply too much competition for the ball and he will never put up ben coats type of numbers even though he clearly has the talent level to do so. as the #1 option in the pats offense last year, if the group was better than 8th, he easilly shouldve been able to put up numbers comparable to the worst of any of gonzalez's or gates's season (after all they are always double teamed) if the pats had their choice between tuman and brady, im pretty sure tuman would be a patriot.

Aswell as Kyle Brady they have a guy who used to be Vince Youngs go-to-guy for Texas - David Thomas who has alot of ability as a pass catcher. at 6-3 and 248 lbs. d. thomas and his 11 receptions may be more of a liability in the scheme the pats run and seems to be more of a "special package" type role player. theyre better off with mike vrabel in there.

Truly a bizarre placing of the Steelers - every bit as out-of-whack with reality as ranking the Rooney's at No.9.

doesnt seem bizarre or out of whact to me. where would you rank the steelers big 3?

[Livinginthe past]

You can argue all you like about who you think is the best TE in the draft, but the fact is - he was still the 3rd guy picked and he lasted until the 3rd round.

That makes it a very weak draft class for TE's in my book.

Until Spaeth shows something on the field he is a non-factor.

I realise that blocking is a key part of being a TE ( we used to have Daniel Graham - possibly the best blocking TE in the game) but the fact remains that its an intangible statistic.

A few guys have standout years and get a rep for good blocking, but its a very subjective thing - people tend to favor a TE they get to see the most footage of - how can you compare him to TE's who you don;t watch on a regular basis?

Do you know how good a blocker Ben Watson is?

Your 'potental upside' theory is shaky at best and hardly quantifiable.

You dont even know enough about how the TE's are going to be used in Pittsburgh this year to be able to comment on their degree of upside.

I dont see how the Patriots are 'where they should be' - Watson caught for more yardage than Miller and your No.2 guy is a rookie (Im not too concerned with how many yards they caught for at Minnesota) is totally unproven.

So Spaeth shattered the records of a guy who didn't even get drafted? Sorry thats not really a big deal is it?

How is Spaeth a better blocker then Utecht?

The Colts have probably the best O-line at pass protection in the league - yet you rate a rookie above their No.2 guy?

As for your comments regarding David Thomas, i'll credit that a lack of time spent watching David Thomas's limited time in the team (i'll remind you that he was behind Daniel Graham and Ben Watson who are both better TE's than anything the Steelers have on their roster).

Still, as always, you are welcome to your opinion - though it appears to be based upon a basically unknowable coaching philosophy regarding TE's (Tomlin) and a 3rd round rookie.

Where would I rank the Steelers?

Behind - San Diego, New England, Baltimore, KC, Denver, Indy, St Louis, NYG, Dallas, and Atlanta.

So around 10 or 11, maybe.

[fansince'76]

Originally Posted by Livinginthe past

....Daniel Graham and Ben Watson who are both better TE's than anything the Steelers have on their roster.

Miller also scored more TDs than Watson on considerably fewer touches:

Ben Watson

Heath Miller

I don't think their respective numbers support that argument, sorry.

[Livinginthe past]

Originally Posted by fansince'76

Miller also scored more TDs than Watson on considerably fewer touches:

Ben Watson

Heath Miller

I don't think their respective numbers support that argument, sorry.

I like the TD's argument - and its conceded.

But I still think yardage is a key factor - Miller may a nice endzone target but he doesnt produce on a regular basis - how you rank these facets of the game is quite subjective.

In terms of depth I still maintain that the Steelers shouldn't be ranked this high.

[tony hipchest]

Originally Posted by Livinginthe past

You can argue all you like about who you think is the best TE in the draft, but the fact is - he was still the 3rd guy picked and he lasted until the 3rd round.

the rankings arent based on where TE's are drafted

That makes it a very weak draft class for TE's in my book.

it was. last year was a weak class for wr's too. didnt seem to effect s. holmes or m. coulstons performance

Until Spaeth shows something on the field he is a non-factor.

why even draft players if theyre not a factor? good players selected are always a factor. just ask r. bush and v. young. (didnt you cite v. young and his go to TE?

I realise that blocking is a key part of being a TE ( we used to have Daniel Graham - possibly the best blocking TE in the game) but the fact remains that its an intangible statistic.

so intangibles have nothing to do with who may be the best unit? i will contend blocking is a very important job and is a great barometer of who may have the best unit. i wont give spaeth all the credit for l. maroney or m. barber jr.'s success in the nfl but he definitely helped them get noticed.

A few guys have standout years and get a rep for good blocking, but its a very subjective thing - people tend to favor a TE they get to see the most footage of - how can you compare him to TE's who you don;t watch on a regular basis?

looks like plenty of scouts saw enough of footage of spaeth to have him ranked where he was. i trust the steelers scouts, much in the same way patriot fans trust belichick and pioli. i'll take my chancesw with their judgement being that i have never scouted spaeth

Do you know how good a blocker Ben Watson is?

hes so good the patriots went out and got an old journeyman named kyle brady

Your 'potental upside' theory is shaky at best and hardly quantifiable.

upside is upside. miller has plenty. k. brady has zero

You dont even know enough about how the TE's are going to be used in Pittsburgh this year to be able to comment on their degree of upside.

i know enough to say their #3 ranking is justified

I dont see how the Patriots are 'where they should be' - Watson caught for more yardage than Miller and your No.2 guy is a rookie (Im not too concerned with how many yards they caught for at Minnesota) is totally unproven.

watson will "regress" in 07. he's not in an offense that will fully utilize his skills, and even if he were the patriots will not pay gonzales or gates money to a TE. argue that point all you want, but the "patriot way" says he will not exceed his best year which was last year. he has 7 career td's. sorry if im not impressed.

So Spaeth shattered the records of a guy who didn't even get drafted? Sorry thats not really a big deal is it?

it is when you are singing the praises of how great clark and utecht is

How is Spaeth a better blocker then Utecht?

he is a better blocker because he blocks the defender better than utecht. dont base your opinion soley on how he helped slow down an aging and tired patriots pass rush in the afc champ game. about 100 nfl scouts would agree with me. check the sources i provided you in my previous post.

The Colts have probably the best O-line at pass protection in the league - yet you rate a rookie above their No.2 guy?

yes. infact, i am willing to bet the colts had spaeth ranked higher than an UDFA on their boards and would gladly trade utecht for him if offered.

As for your comments regarding David Thomas, i'll credit that a lack of time spent watching David Thomas's limited time in the team (i'll remind you that he was behind Daniel Graham and Ben Watson who are both better TE's than anything the Steelers have on their roster).


watson- 3 yrs 80 rec 1100 yds 7 td
miller---2 yrs 73 rec 853 yds 11 td (and one of the best blocking TE's in the league)

Still, as always, you are welcome to your opinion - though it appears to be based upon a basically unknowable coaching philosophy regarding TE's (Tomlin) and a 3rd round rookie.

and as always, thank you for the reminder that a steelerfan is wecome to an opinion on a steelers message board.

Where would I rank the Steelers?

Behind - San Diego, New England, Baltimore, KC, Denver, Indy, St Louis, NYG, Dallas, and Atlanta.

So around 10 or 11, maybe.

as a starter, miller has more playoff experience than watson, more playoff wins, and more superbowl experience. other than hopes, and dreams, and perceived potential, what do you possibly have to suggest hes better than miller (as a receiver)? theres no question hes a better blocker.

can you even name the 2nd and 3rd te on dallas, st louis, atlanta, giants squad? whose 3rd behind heap and wilcox? you left out washington's c. cooley in yout TE unit's rankings. does that make the steelers 12th?

[fansince'76]

Originally Posted by Livinginthe past

I like the TD's argument - and its conceded.

But I still think yardage is a key factor - Miller may a nice endzone target but he doesnt produce on a regular basis - how you rank these facets of the game is quite subjective.

In terms of depth I still maintain that the Steelers shouldn't be ranked this high.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I was shocked to see our TE unit ranked that high. Especially after the complete diss of Troy (by another publication) - shows you how subjective these rankings really are. Nothing more than conversation starters, really.

[Crushzilla]

Originally Posted by tony hipchest

the ravens got snubbed???? this is the easiest argument to put to rest. look at the rankings again. the ravens were ranked #6 as a group, and todd heap was ranked #3 behind only gates and gonzalez in the AFC. i dont see the snub unless one feels wilcox is that great. hes not. 31 other teams have a "wicox" on their roster. tuman is easilly better than wilcox and he wasnt even mentionned in the rankings.

Huh?

Come on, Tony. Statically, you could say that Heath finished in the 3rd tier of TE's last year. The man right before him, L.J. Smith had 611 yards. That's 218 more than Miller who was 13th last year in the league. I'm not saying the Ravens should have been 3rd instead of us... but someone should have. Besides Wilcox had three times more catches and touchdowns than Tuman and Spaeth combined last year

Truthfully, and this kills me even more, it should be the Brownies in the three hole.

[tony hipchest]

Originally Posted by fansince'76

Miller also scored more TDs than Watson on considerably fewer touches:

Ben Watson

Heath Miller

I don't think their respective numbers support that argument, sorry.

yeah, that was a pretty bogus statement. also must be considered is that millers career long receptions are 50 and 87 yds. watsons is 40. its pretty clear that miller is more than just a "red zone threat". having ben watson in fantasy, ive paid pretty close attention to his highlights. he is a abig receiver and doesnt break as many tackles as miller, and he doesnt block as well.

watson is heralded for chasing down a hot dogging champ bailey on an int in a playoff game. impressive indeed. it shows he may be better suited for playing safety in the nfl rather than TE. he still hasnt lived up to that hype and i doubt he ever will on the patriots though. as the #1 receiving option in last years offense he shoulda had a monster year. it was mediocre at best.

i would take the bears desmond clark and greg olsen over the pats top 2 te's.

[tony hipchest]

Originally Posted by Crushzilla

I'm not saying the Ravens should have been 3rd instead of us... but someone should have. Besides Wilcox had three times more catches and touchdowns than Tuman and Spaeth combined last year

.

well, you did say the ravens got snubbed (and even apologized for saying so).

this ranking is based on AFC units, so lj smith, c. cooley, j. witten, and j. shockey dont even belong in the discussion (although i'll take the steelers 3 te's over theirs any day)