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Old 07-09-2007, 04:16 PM   #51
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamberts-lost-tooth View Post
He is an unkown factor..but I have more faith in the Pittsburgh's scouts ability to locate talent ...then ...say....Cincys two man scouting Corp.

To be truthful...the fact that the FO sees "something" in Spaeth gives me more reason to believe he may be special than the combine or highlight reals will ever be able to do.
Although its already been covered in depth, I feel that Spaeth was picked up (in no specific order)

a.) For his history at Minnesota, a primarily "run-first' system much like ours
b.) The possibility he can become a tackle, if he truly is a great blocking TE he may be an option on the thin offensive line
c.) His educational accolades, a cerebral lineman is often more successful than a lug with little concept of a snap count
d.) His size. Even if he is not a primary option in the passing attack his 6'7" frame adds a TON of opportunities to a relatively small core

All and all... worth a third round pick

With that said, however, I still feel the Steelers are ranked a wee-bit too high given that Miller is the only one that we can ACCURATELY assess.

I realize we do have Tuman, but I doubt he was considered by this author since he wasn't named. I feel like if he wasconsidering the "Tuman-factor" he would have stated it to avoid the criticisms he is now facing from knowledgeable fans like the people here at SF (shameless plug completed).

Though after watching the playoff game against the Brownies last night on NFL Network, I am remembering how useful Tuman can be.

I feel it should have went:
3.) Cleveland- Winslow, despite being an ass (which wasn't a critique in this specific consideration) led all tight ends in receptions last year and Heiden has proved that he can be a very reliable target in Kellen's absence... Vroom Vroom...

After that it gets a little blury...

I could interchange these two:
Baltimore- For reasons I've gone into previously
Indy- Everyone is a reliable target in Manning's offense. Dallas Clark has shown reliability and to be quite honest Fletcher and Utecht, I feel, benefit from the impossibility to effectively cover Wayne, Harrison, Clark, and a fourth man...

After that:
Pittsburgh- The potential is there, as shown Miller's rookie year and in Tuman's play before that and as a reliable blocker still in the Miller era. Spaeth, like ALL draft picks, has an opportunity to shine, but has not seen a snap yet at this level. I realize that last point has been argued constantly by both Nigel and Tony, but we have to be realistic. I know I was crying for someone's head after Calvin Johnson was ranked above Hines.

In fact, my overall beef with these ALL these rankings is that they are very forgetful.

My problem with Ben's 17th ranking is that he was the youngest Super Bowl QB ever (I believe) and had astonishing success his rookie year, but one bad year plagued with BRUTAL injuries (we aren't talking tweaked hammies here) set him back a bit. Its hardly enough to demote him so heavily, especially since we missed the playoffs by a freaking game.

Troy's 6th ranking is the same thing. The defense as a whole struggled last year, which took away from Polamalu's opportunity to truly rove effectively. When the defense pulls its weight he becomes 100 times more deadly... but maybe that was the rankers point...

The Rooney's at 9... well... I have no idea what the hell that was about...

I realize that one could say... well that applies to Miller, too... he had a great rookie campaign...

With Troy and Ben though, they have proven themselves with more than one good year.

Winslow, too, has only had one REAL year under his belt, but his numbers were phenominal, much better than Heath's his first year..

WInslow's numbers in 2006 alone are similar to if not better than Miller's two years combined, except for TDs.

Also, Winslow, I feel, has more clearly become a very, very crucial weapon in that offense. Though it may seem like it on the surface, Miller had almost identical stats to his first year. I feel he will be a crucial part of our offense going forward, but I couldn't say as someone on the outside looking in that he is as important to our passing attack as Winslow is to Cleveland. It isn't this guy's job to consider every team's fanbase's homer-ish perception (don't accuse me of pointing fingers, I'm just as guilty and can be QUITE the homer at times). Here, though, I have to speak my mind.

Consider, too, that:
Heiden has had 8 years of experience, same as Tuman...
I realize that Tuman is a block first TE, but Heiden's numbers greatly outweigh his.. I won't go into detail, but check it yourselves... Although I think you'll be content to take my word for it.


Do I like the Steelers TE core. Hell yes. Love 'em. I feel like we have the perfect guys for our type of play.

Do I feel like they are the third best in the AFC? Probably not. Not yet.
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Old 07-09-2007, 04:28 PM   #52
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

I see Tony is reading this thread now... only a matter of time before I get my ass handed to me...
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:18 PM   #53
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

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Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post
No, its obviously not solely based upon that 'absurd comment' (as you put it) - its based on all the many, many other points you decided to ignore becasue you wanted to drop the point/counter point format and indulge in a monologue.there was nothing to back up your "points" the were nothing more than your skewed opinion

Put it this way, Utecht is a proven viable back-up TE at NFL level - Spaeth hasn't played a single down in pro-football.spaeth has proven to be worth a 3rd round pick. after all isnt it your contention that since a player is drafted higher he is automatically better?

I'll take the known quantity in competition with a 3rd rounder.. And please stop interjecting 1st round picks into the debate - they really are irrelevant.now this is really a pompus statement. in case you havent figured out this whole thread is about the best TE UNITS in the AFC. you were the one who asked ME to rank the tight ends in this years draft. i did. every tight end on a squad is relevant to this discussion whether they were an UDFA, 1st round pick, old, young or in the middle. its really beginning to seem like it is your OPINIONS are irrelevant especially since you think you can dictate what gets discussed.

If you read close I said I didn't have to know the 3rd TE's on other teams rosters - of course I know who they are - what I did say was that I wasn't totally aware of their performance in the blocking game. of course you do if youre not totally aware, i guess you cant say any of them are better than pittsburghs now can you?

Contigency plans? The answer really is as simple as looking to the next guy in the depth chart. yep. that means theyre the best, right?

Gates goes down - Manumaleuna steps up - he hasn't caught many passes due to Gates' presense but he would be the next guy in line.

Gonzalez goes down and they probably have to make a move into FA and pick up a guy who can catch the ball otherwise they use the TE as a pure blocker. wow, pittsburghs got 3 guys who can catch the ball and block. i guess that means theyre a pretty good unit.

Claiming that I said they 'wouldn't miss a beat' is just facetious and untrue. San Diego and KC have better units because their No.1 guy is better than Heath Miller and their back-ups are of comparable quality to a guy who has caught 5 passes a year and rookie mid round TE.

i didnt claim you said shit. here we go with the deception tactics. funniest thing is you even quoted EXACTLY what i said:

Quote:
but i will assume you think they wouldnt miss a beat.


Thats a ridiculous offer - why should I waste my time doing that when I can ask you to take away the best RB's in the AFC and tell me who is the best? why engage in a debate if youre afraid to put your money where your mouth is and defend your "points". TE depth is obviously a factor in deciding who has the best TE UNITS in the AFC.

Have fun doing it, because we wont learn anything - other than which teams have the most disposable starting RB.
and the diversion tactics are soon to follow. this isnt the best RB UNIT in the afc thread.



Thats fine. In case you haven't realised (yet) i've given Miller his props (the 180 remember?) - its just the rest of the depth in Pittsburgh that doesn't excite me. care to share what TE depth on the other teams that do excite you to help support your point?



There you go picking 1st rounders for comparison again.

Stick to 3rd rounders.

again. pretty damn pompus. dont tell me what to stick to. i will discuss all TE's and the UNITS they belong to as i feel free. you dont set the parameters of what is being discussed here.


Lets see how NFL ready Spaeth is at the end of the year - your consistent eulogising of an unknown college TE is tedious.

lol he was obviously "unknown" only to you. so is that really a point thet even deserves response or just a flamboyant opinion?

Like I mentioned before, I dont expect Minnesota to improve their DB corps because they added an NFL ready CB to the mix in the 3rd round.

more diversion? what does this discussion have to do with minnesota db's? did they steal a top CB in the nation that i missed out on.



The fact is its only when I make a point that you jump on it. More than a few people agree with my assessment. yes. and i see dead people.



I'll do some for you (although you'll just disagree)

Patriots - Watson edges Miller in production. lol Brady is an excellent run blocker. pure opinion. tuman is better. Thomas is better than Spaeth. lol

Denver - Graham is of similar quality to Miller, Scheffler and Alexander are better than Tuman and Spaeth. any facts (or atleast any supporting opinions) to back this up

Baltimore- Todd Heap is better than Heath Miller - and the back-ups are of similar quality to Pittsburghs back-ups. care to name them? wow. i didnt know the ravens had the best collegiate te award winner on their roster.



You can contend all you like. I'm presuming you are having an untested rookie stepping up into Millers position? of course. miller goes down and spaeth steps up. after all it was heath miller that steped up and allowed the steelers to cut a proven NFL veteran TE named reimersma. are you stating that a rookie TE cant start in this league? spaeth is a smart cookie. he picked up the TE position immediately in college and he will pick up the steelers playbook just the same. i have no worries in his capabilities as a back up. or do only the patriots have the capabilities of plugging in a rookie and still finding success.

What utter rubbish. I wont be addressing the unproven nature of rookies again.



Thats backward logic - of course his skills aren't affected by his draft position! Its the other way round.
theres more to it than just skills. injuries play a part in draft position. if it were all about skills, heismann winning troy smith wouldnt have slipped to the 6th round.
Olsen (for the last time) went in the 1st round - you guy went in the 3rd round.

Sooner or later that fact is going to sink in. sooner or later you will figure out this article was written about TE UNITS in the AFC. olsen was basically the last pick in the 1st round which among nfl circles is essentially looked at as the 1st pick in the 2nd round. (we all know the colts werent picking a TE with their 1st pick. if spaeth were at the combine he very well coulda been a 2nd rounder too. its all relative. do you even care to address why olsen went so high and spaeth went so low? olsens draft value was inflated by the reputation of shockey and winslow jr. if i were a gm i would find it rather risky to draft a player based on 2 other players mouths and reputation but thats just me. regardless i still find it hilarious that you would take the bengals top 2 TE's based on "nfl production" over the top 2 collegiate TE's regardless of draft position. that cant do much for your credibility.


Every fanboy poster on this forum has used the '6th round Brady' theory to justify their rampant homerism while assessing their own late round draft picks.

is the 3rd round now considered a "late round draft pick" i always thought it was considered a 1st day or atleast mid round draft pick.

Say hello to Omar Jacobs and the 'new Bettis' Cedric Humes when you see 'em.

keep them "facts" coming!
and yes, i have something for your greatest act of deflection in this thread. i see how you spun ben watson as a potential hall of famer along with gates and gonzales:

Quote:
Not really. Watson simply isn't in that league of TE, just yet.

Lets compare the first two years as a starter (Watson was injured nearly all of his 1st year) of each career, as players often break out in their 3rd year and should certainly be improving.

Watson - 78 catches 1084 yards
Crumpler - 61 catches 785 yards
Gates - 105 catches 1353 yards
Gonzalez - 92 catches 989 yards


Out of the group of 4 TE's (two of which are probably HOF) Watson has the 3rd most catches and 2nd most yardage.

Thats some pretty decent company, to say the least, and Watson compares well.
you conviniently left out the TD's and had to add 1st 2 years "as a starter".... OH YEAH! you also left out heath miller!

Miller 73 catches 852 yards 11 td's (1 SB)
wow. an unproven rookie (best college TE) was plugged into an offense in his 1st year and actually played in, and won a sb. watson "earned" a ring riding the pine though right? im sure that will help when hall of fame voting comes up.
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:29 PM   #54
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

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I see Tony is reading this thread now... only a matter of time before I get my ass handed to me...
I doubt is. He is way too busy convincing the world (or at least the world that reads SF ) that Spaeth is a fantastic addition to a powerful TE line-up in Pittsburgh.

Just because we haven't really seen anybody agree with this line of thinking doesn't mean its not right.....its not like we are on a Steelers board or anything.....

I reckon if we ran a poll on how strong the Pittsburgh TE unit is we'd get an illuminating response - bearing mind there is always a degree of homerism on every board.

That gives me an idea.....
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The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:40 PM   #55
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

Tony, i've read that exhibition in circular logic and 'my opinion is better than your opinion' BS.

Quite frankly, its a bit boring having to state, then re-state every point 3 or 4 times just so you can say the direct opposite.

I don't mind attempting to clarify what I have typed and debating its merits but I find we rarely get anywhere once you sink your fangs into a debate - back and forth, back and forth.

I look at the original article and see there is very lttle in the way of in depth explanation of why the rankings fell the way they did - yet I am supposed to give a thesis on my rankings?

You asked me to tell you why I ranked Pittsburgh below certain teams - and I did so - and the best you can manage in response is 'lol' and to state the opposite.

Its me doing all the work here while you pick and choose what to respond to.

I've said my bit on the subject.
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The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:02 PM   #56
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

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I see Tony is reading this thread now... only a matter of time before I get my ass handed to me...
1 big difference... you didnt throw out a bunch of lame uneducated comments such as [and i paraphrase] "watson is way better than anything on the steelers roster" or the steeleres werent good at drafting and utilizing TE's" or "theres no way you can compare a player drafted in the 3rd round to a player drafted in the 1st].

im sure after a simple re-read of this thread i could find atleast 5 more bogus statements LITP randomly pulled out of the proverbial "bucket o bung."

i will give you that winslow is a great 1 dimensional receiving TE. and the colts definitely have a solid group. but after all the nagging injuries a player like clark has had, a stigma starts to follow. and i will use the stigma that has followed kevin jones and rex grossman as examples of how multiple injuries can have an effect on players when these types of rankings are put together.

and ultimately i have the "magic" of the rooneys and F.O. and scouting department to fall back on when it comes to plucking gems from the draft, that many overlook.

i guess LITP is gonna abandon this thread and get to work on a poll... *sigh*

i guess i should get to work on a poll asking whether ike taylor should be banned from having a roommate and speaking to younger players to make him a better player. (lets see if he includeds NFC teams in his poll.)
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:10 PM   #57
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

Tony vs. LITP Round 23241


ding ding ding!
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:43 PM   #58
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

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Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post

Its me doing all the work here while you pick and choose what to respond to.

I've said my bit on the subject.
in jest you asked twice for insider knowledge on how the steelers coaches plan to use their TE's. i provided 50 plus posts and links on that subject alone. go figure... you didnt even aknowledge it.

you mistakenly state that steelers coaches arent able to draft and utilize tight ends, yet when i provide undisputable evidence to the contrary the only response is a mockingly snide comment to the tunes of me reverting back to the "cowher era"...

lol. what the hell else am i supposed to fall back on? the belichick era?

thats too bad that you are done with this thread. having you "tap out" is usually never this easy.
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Old 07-09-2007, 07:08 PM   #59
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

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Tony vs. LITP Round 23241


ding ding ding!
Yep. Mind sharing some of that popcorn, Preacher?



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Old 07-09-2007, 07:29 PM   #60
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

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Yep. Mind sharing some of that popcorn, Preacher?





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