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Old 09-14-2007, 08:45 AM   #91
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post
Well, I don't believe there to be such a huge distinction in employing lip-readers and guys with binoculars and having a guy with a video recorder.

It all seems a little ridiculous that the Patriots have been heavily punished for essentially using slightly higher spec technology.

When I see the self righteousness by other teams fans, I think its because they believe that the Patriots have been caught trying to get other teams signals - while also believing that no other team does the exact same thing.

This is totally wrong.

What the Patriots did was use an illegal method to try and obtain the same information others team do.

I guarantee you, alot of the guys spouting off with opinions don't realise that the Steelers devote as much time as anyone else to trying to steal their opponents signals and protect their own.
LITP - the Pats flipped off the league office, which sent out a memo, afer they got caught pulling this crap in Green Bay, to cut it out. If they do not like the rules, then change the rules. Until then, obey the rules.

Belichick's claim he did not know the rules is nonsense - it is like being pulled over for speeding , claiming you did not see a speed limit sign posted, getting a warning from the cop, then pulling away from the cop and immediately resuming breaking the speed limit. IMO Goodell should have waited and had someone break down sideline tape of every game since Green Bay to see how often the "video assistant" was on the Pats sidline with video camera in tow, after calling in the video operator to ask him how often he did it & who told him to do it since Green Bay..

Or, to use another analogy, it is like getting harsher discipline the second time you violate the league's substance abuse policy (oh, wait, that is not a good analogy - the second time you violate the substance abuse policy it is a mandatory suspension, not a fine)

Typical arrogance by Belichick (and by Kraft for not telling him to quit, but since Belichick wins Kraft presumably would not care what Belichick does). His petty crap such as shoving photographers, cursing out the Steelers trainer who came on the field to help an injured Pats player, and playing games with the injury report each week finally caught up with him. Those are not sanctionable offenses but they are indicative of Belichick's attitude that the rules applied to mere mortals do not apply to him.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:56 AM   #92
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

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Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post
John Clayton is a total moron.
Tried to clarify what you really meant.

Quote:
American Heritage Dictionary
mo?ron (m?r'ŏn', mōr'-) Pronunciation Key
n.
A stupid person; a dolt.
Psychology A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.
Real classy post.
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:03 AM   #93
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie_steeler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post
John Clayton is a total moron.
Real classy post.
Funny, he didn't seem to have much of a problem with Clayton the day before yesterday:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post
Quote:
What will be the longterm effect on Belichick and the Patriots?
Although this is embarrassing, you can't take away what this franchise can do. They may have the best team in football. Robert Kraft is one of the league's best owners. The team has three Super Bowl rings and a great chance to get a fourth. Other great organizations have paid penalties for violating league rules. The Broncos lost a draft choice for violating the salary cap with John Elway. The Steelers once had to forfeit a third-round draft choice for working out in shoulder pads in the offseason. The Patriots may lose a draft choice or two. And whether or not the Patriots videotaped the Jets' defensive signals, Belichick won't be any less of a coach.
John Clayton's take (always did like that guy) - on top of the other teams who 'bent the rules' I believe the 49ers also did some creative accounting.
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:10 AM   #94
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

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Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post
John Clayton is a total moron.
And I guess Peter King is also a moron?

Not enough
Belichick nets lenient punishment from Goodell, NFL


I think the Patriots and Bill Belichick got off lucky.

What Roger Goodell did in penalizing Belichick was significant, but he did not ban Belichick from coaching for even a week for repeatedly cheating -- after being warned 12 months ago to not videotape other teams' coaches signaling in plays from the sidelines.

When Dallas assistant coach Wade Wilson got suspended five games and fined $100,000 this month for using the banned substance HGH to treat impotency, Goodell told him coaches have to be held to a higher standard....

Now, about Belichick's reaction. An odd mix of mea culpa with too much justification for the cheating, I thought. To me, there's something almost 1972-Nixonian about what Belichick did; and just before midnight Thursday, a longtime NFL employee echoed that to me. "Most of the people I've talked to this week have been mystified by this, like I am,'' this club official said. "It's like, Why did Nixon need Watergate? He was going to win the '72 election in a landslide anyway. And why does this guy with such a great team need to be doing penny-ante stuff against the rules anyway?''


You know what that is? It's a classic deflection by Belichick. Instead of simply admitting he broke the rules and saying he deserves to be censured, he throws the changeup and tries to smokescreen us. The "interpretation'' of the rule was in error. That's an insult to Goodell, and to every fan who loves either the Patriots, this game or both.

Goodell slapped Belichick hard, but not hard enough. A suspension should have accompanied the loss of the top draft choice.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1

And so is Don Banks?

Lucky break
NFL lets Belichick, Patriots off easy after spy scandal


While the size of the fine is no doubt an embarrassment of sorts to Belichick, he garners large fees these days for appearances and speaking engagements, and even with his recently tarnished image will make up for the loss of income soon enough. I firmly believe the suspension that Goodell admitted he was considering for Belichick would have taken a far greater toll than the missing dollars. To be ostracized from his own players and the Patriots team complex for two or three weeks would have been a bitter pill for Belichick to swallow. Somehow, I think the stigma of that suspension would have stayed with Belichick far longer than the sting of the fine he incurred, staining his reputation in a way that a financial penalty does not.

For much of the day on Thursday, my SI.com colleague, Peter King, and I were hearing from multiple sources that Belichick's suspension was on the way. But in the end, Goodell may have taken it a bit lightly on the NFL's most successful coach, choosing not to exile him to the sidelines at the time of the year he lives for.


"I specifically considered whether to impose a suspension on Coach Belichick,'' Goodell wrote in the league's statement announcing the penalties. "I have determined not to do so, largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension.''

I'm not so sure. The sizable fine and the loss of a No. 1 draft pick will hurt; but in a week that has to rank among the darkest of Belichick's life and career, he has cause to feel to feel just a little bit fortunate. All things considered, it could have been worse.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1

To help educate me as to which writers and publications I should quit reading, maybe you can give me a list of all the pro football writers who you feel do not know as much about the game as you do.
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:23 AM   #95
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoethlisBURGHer View Post
Oh I know this.

Here is my take:

With binoculars, many times it's still a hazy image and you can only "zoom in" so far. And if the coordinator is in the booth, just about forget seeing him..
If I want to see something at a distance, with clarity - I use binoculars - thats what binoculars do.

They don't show things up as hazy at all.

Scientists use telescopes (basically a single version of binoculars) to look at the stars - they don't use video camera's.

Last I heard these viedo camera's weren't equipped with x-ray vision, so if the co-ord stays in a booth it doesn't what you use to look at him - you won't see him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoethlisBURGHer View Post
However with a video camera, they can really zoom in. There is no guessing whatsoever on the signals or the lip reading. It's very clear and crisp. Also, they videotape can be reviewed at halftime to make better adjustments to the defense than someone using binaculars and a notepad..
Like I said, with binoculars you can zoom in - and I bet to a better degree than with a video camera.

Where we agree is that videotape is much easier reviewed at half time - the Patriots used the videotape to do what other teams were trying to do from written notes and memory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoethlisBURGHer View Post
And what makes this worse, is that Goodell warned ALL TEAMS (not all teams but the Patriots), that it is against the rules to videotape defensive and offensive signals. I doubt there was much "gray area" for Bellicheat to get confused. He's a very smart guy, look at what he has done as a coordinator and HC, I doubt he's easily confused as he's trying to get the media to think..
Without a doubt. Belichick has been punished, and punsihed hard, for ignoring the words of Goodell.

Of course he knew exactly what he was doing, but the guy is stubborn and more than likey thought he could just keep on doing it.

The argument BB would be presenting would probably be similar to mine - everyone is stealing signals but the Patriots have been caught making a permanent record of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoethlisBURGHer View Post
He was blatently thumbing his nose at the rules and the new commish. I think this should be the punishment:

Bellicheat is suspended for the Jets game in Foxborough, and if they meet in the playoffs, Bellicheat is suspended for that game as well.

No draft picks at all on the first day. Jets get draft picks as long as it doesn't add up to more than the 10 maximum allowed per draft.

If caught again, Bellicheat gets suspended without pay for the rest of season, the team is not allowed any on-field credentials beyond coaching and training staff, their game tape to be reviewed is given to them by the league, and the Patriot's orginization gets the fine of $5 million.
Again, I agree.

BB has been punished for assuming Goodell wouldn't clamp down so hard.

Where you lose me again, is your ridiculous levels of punishment - but then you are a fan of a rival team, I doubt you would have thought it 'over-the-top' if the Patriots had been docked their 1st rounder for the next 10 years.

The Bronco's got caught cheating the salary cap and they forfeited only a 3rd rounder - I think thats a worse crime.

What gets people so excited is that they think that the Patriots are the only ones stealing signals from the oppsoition - everyone is doing it.

The Patriots just did it the wrong way.
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:30 AM   #96
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta Dan View Post
And I guess Peter King is also a moron?

Not enough
Belichick nets lenient punishment from Goodell, NFL


I think the Patriots and Bill Belichick got off lucky.

What Roger Goodell did in penalizing Belichick was significant, but he did not ban Belichick from coaching for even a week for repeatedly cheating -- after being warned 12 months ago to not videotape other teams' coaches signaling in plays from the sidelines.

When Dallas assistant coach Wade Wilson got suspended five games and fined $100,000 this month for using the banned substance HGH to treat impotency, Goodell told him coaches have to be held to a higher standard....

Now, about Belichick's reaction. An odd mix of mea culpa with too much justification for the cheating, I thought. To me, there's something almost 1972-Nixonian about what Belichick did; and just before midnight Thursday, a longtime NFL employee echoed that to me. "Most of the people I've talked to this week have been mystified by this, like I am,'' this club official said. "It's like, Why did Nixon need Watergate? He was going to win the '72 election in a landslide anyway. And why does this guy with such a great team need to be doing penny-ante stuff against the rules anyway?''


You know what that is? It's a classic deflection by Belichick. Instead of simply admitting he broke the rules and saying he deserves to be censured, he throws the changeup and tries to smokescreen us. The "interpretation'' of the rule was in error. That's an insult to Goodell, and to every fan who loves either the Patriots, this game or both.

Goodell slapped Belichick hard, but not hard enough. A suspension should have accompanied the loss of the top draft choice.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1

And so is Don Banks?

Lucky break
NFL lets Belichick, Patriots off easy after spy scandal


While the size of the fine is no doubt an embarrassment of sorts to Belichick, he garners large fees these days for appearances and speaking engagements, and even with his recently tarnished image will make up for the loss of income soon enough. I firmly believe the suspension that Goodell admitted he was considering for Belichick would have taken a far greater toll than the missing dollars. To be ostracized from his own players and the Patriots team complex for two or three weeks would have been a bitter pill for Belichick to swallow. Somehow, I think the stigma of that suspension would have stayed with Belichick far longer than the sting of the fine he incurred, staining his reputation in a way that a financial penalty does not.

For much of the day on Thursday, my SI.com colleague, Peter King, and I were hearing from multiple sources that Belichick's suspension was on the way. But in the end, Goodell may have taken it a bit lightly on the NFL's most successful coach, choosing not to exile him to the sidelines at the time of the year he lives for.


"I specifically considered whether to impose a suspension on Coach Belichick,'' Goodell wrote in the league's statement announcing the penalties. "I have determined not to do so, largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension.''

I'm not so sure. The sizable fine and the loss of a No. 1 draft pick will hurt; but in a week that has to rank among the darkest of Belichick's life and career, he has cause to feel to feel just a little bit fortunate. All things considered, it could have been worse.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1

To help educate me as to which writers and publications I should quit reading, maybe you can give me a list of all the pro football writers who you feel do not know as much about the game as you do.
Sure, both guys write for SI.

What we rarely get is any type of differing thought on these matters - we get a bunch of talking heads (or writing heads) pontificating on something they know little more about than the average fan.

I agree that the suspension of the Belichick would have hurt the Patriots, definitely more than any fine - but in their eagerness to see the book thrown at the Patriots people are losing touch with reality.

For the reasons I have highlighted above, I think the judgement is harsh - everyone tries to steal signals the patriots used videotape instead of just lipreaders and game recordings.

What Belichick and the Patriots are being punished for is underestimating the determination of Goodell to come down hard on offenders of all descriptions.

That was their mistake and they've paid a high price for it.

Of course that price will never be enough for some fans - I guess they'll just have to learn to live it.

Just like how i'll have to live with the fact that alot of fans still think that the Patriots are the only team to try and steal signals (give back the Lombardi's LOL)
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:33 AM   #97
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

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LITP - the Pats flipped off the league office, which sent out a memo, afer they got caught pulling this crap in Green Bay, to cut it out. If they do not like the rules, then change the rules. Until then, obey the rules.

Belichick's claim he did not know the rules is nonsense - it is like being pulled over for speeding , claiming you did not see a speed limit sign posted, getting a warning from the cop, then pulling away from the cop and immediately resuming breaking the speed limit. IMO Goodell should have waited and had someone break down sideline tape of every game since Green Bay to see how often the "video assistant" was on the Pats sidline with video camera in tow, after calling in the video operator to ask him how often he did it & who told him to do it since Green Bay..

Or, to use another analogy, it is like getting harsher discipline the second time you violate the league's substance abuse policy (oh, wait, that is not a good analogy - the second time you violate the substance abuse policy it is a mandatory suspension, not a fine)

Typical arrogance by Belichick (and by Kraft for not telling him to quit, but since Belichick wins Kraft presumably would not care what Belichick does). His petty crap such as shoving photographers, cursing out the Steelers trainer who came on the field to help an injured Pats player, and playing games with the injury report each week finally caught up with him. Those are not sanctionable offenses but they are indicative of Belichick's attitude that the rules applied to mere mortals do not apply to him.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
.
We are on the same page regarding the reasons for the sanctions.

Belichikc thought he could ignore these memo's just because he didnt agree with them - now he knows different.
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:43 AM   #98
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

[QUOTE=Livinginthe past;293774]Sure, both guys write for SI.

What we rarely get is any type of differing thought on these matters - we get a bunch of talking heads (or writing heads) pontificating on something they know little more about than the average fan.QUOTE]

Not true - you helpfully provided the link to Patriots Daily defending the conduct.
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:12 AM   #99
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

The punishment is about what I figured the Pats and Belichick would get, but honestly, I thought the fine would be much less than half a mil. I also felt that Belichick should have been suspended for blatant disregard of the rules - maybe not 4 games, but at least a game or two. If I would deliberately ignore the rules on my job, I'd be fired, so I don't think a suspension in this case would have been unreasonable. Still though, Goodell has still sent a pretty clear message to the rest of the league - that there's a new sheriff in town, and he means business.
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:16 AM   #100
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Default Re: NFL To Fine Belichick 500 Grand + Draft Picks

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Not true - you helpfully provided the link to Patriots Daily defending the conduct.
So now you can see how far one must go to find truly unbiased opinion!?..
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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