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Old 10-22-2007, 06:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

Quote:
The Steelers definitely have the threat to strike from anywhere on the field. It just doesn't work too well when the OL doesn't give the QB enough time to throw the deep ball accurately.



Quote:
Part of the problem is that when Ben gets the green light to throw deep he insists on throwing it regadless of the coverage, so Arians may be reluctant to dial up a turnover by making that call.
Ben needs more time and needs to make better decisions.
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

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Originally Posted by Atlanta Dan View Post
Two can play the circular logic game

I agree passing brought the Steelers back last night (when you are 14 points down in the 4th quarter you do not have many other options) but not balancing the run and the pass is what botched the first half and got them down in the first place. Tomlin apparently thought so too if his comments about needing to run more to Andrea Kramer at the half are accurate and if he had any input into the Steelers calling 5 runs out of 6 plays to start the second half after Foote's interception)

And as far as interceptions being someone's "fault" I am not blaming Ben - throwing as much as Arians called last night is going to set up more miscues when it was not necessary to do so

The first half was Bruce Arians being too clever for his own good and it blew up on him - I do not think he has yet found his play calling rhythm (as Madden observed in the first half last night about the Steelers seeming disjointed)
AD...

All around....

That is just a very smart post!

Here is a couple questions then, tying this post in with Mosca's post.

1. Is it worth going out and looking for a big receiver that can run the deep routes?

2. On a completely different note, would it be better for the NFL in their stat keeping, to keep stats on interceptions more like baseball... Error (position). So it would look more like this, "Interception (QB)" or "Interceptions (WR)." The initials would be for the player who was responsible for the interception (did Ben throw the ball into double coverage? Yep Interception (QB). Did the ball hit Ward in the hands? Yep, Interception (WR). I just think it would keep better record of what really happened in the game.

3. Your dead right on balance. So the question then is... what is keeping us from that balance. I can't imagine it is just Arians saying screw it. What is he seeing, or what does he suspect that makes us be unbalanced?
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:47 PM   #23
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

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Originally Posted by Big D View Post
and you didnt pull your hair out after bens three first half turnovers? You face the 32nd ranked run defense. How about pound the football.
I pulled out my hair after Ben's first interception, after Hines let a ball go right through his hands and into a second interception, and when the O line let the defense come through like they were turnstyles and created a fumble by hitting Ben (yeah, Ben should tried to tuck the ball better as well).

Pound the ball? With 8 and 9 men in the box? Sure, why not. Whenver we TRIED to do that, we got STUFFED. The big runs happened when they started fanning out to protect against the pass (if I remember the game right, gotta watch it again to make sure).
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

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Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
I pulled out my hair after Ben's first interception, after Hines let a ball go right through his hands and into a second interception, and when the O line let the defense come through like they were turnstyles and created a fumble by hitting Ben (yeah, Ben should tried to tuck the ball better as well).

Pound the ball? With 8 and 9 men in the box? Sure, why not. Whenver we TRIED to do that, we got STUFFED. The big runs happened when they started fanning out to protect against the pass (if I remember the game right, gotta watch it again to make sure).
wow....i can't believe what i'm reading. this is the EXACT opposite of the arizona complaints from here. tomlin was called a cowher clone , predictable, stubborn. and why? because he wouldn't abandon an ineffective run game. its not like they didn't run the ball. parker had 21 carries for 93 yds. here's every carry parker had...
0
3
7
4
27
3
-3
1
7

second half

1
1
15
4
-4
-3
24
1
1
1
1
4
thats 21 carries....11 were for 1 yd or less.....51 of the 93 yds came on 2 runs leaving42 yds on 19 carries,for an average or 2.2 yds per carry. very similiar to the arizona game. the game that everyone bitched about NOT throwing more !!!
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:22 PM   #25
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

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Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
AD...

Here is a couple questions then, tying this post in with Mosca's post.

1. Is it worth going out and looking for a big receiver that can run the deep routes?

2. On a completely different note, would it be better for the NFL in their stat keeping, to keep stats on interceptions more like baseball... Error (position). So it would look more like this, "Interception (QB)" or "Interceptions (WR)." The initials would be for the player who was responsible for the interception (did Ben throw the ball into double coverage? Yep Interception (QB). Did the ball hit Ward in the hands? Yep, Interception (WR). I just think it would keep better record of what really happened in the game.

3. Your dead right on balance. So the question then is... what is keeping us from that balance. I can't imagine it is just Arians saying screw it. What is he seeing, or what does he suspect that makes us be unbalanced?
Peter King believes WR is a deep position you can pick up in the later rounds - i agree with King you spend your $$$ on who is throwing the ball, so spending yet another #1 on a WR (they have used 3 of 9 #1 picks on WR since 1999) does not make sense to me with the other needs (OL!!!!!) this team needs to fill.

For better or worse the Steelers had a first class deep threat (and head case) with Plax - I believe they made the correct choice with signing Ward and letting Plax go, but with Ward's contract I think at this point they have to figure out why Holmes is not being showcased rather than throw more $$$ at the problem.

As for the stats on who is responsible for INTs, my bet is NFL personnel men keep those sorts of stats but waiting to see how the "official scorer" would decide if the turnover was the QB's fault is probably not something the NFL officials (or fantasy football players) are ready to measure officially.

As for Arians, I just think he goes into a game with a plan (I admit I was yelling at him in the Arizona game for running too much) and will not deviate from it. He opened up with the pass, had success on the first series,and then rode it into the ground until halftime. When the pass first strategy was not working last night he was not flexible enough to change it until Tomlin told him to do so at halftime - maybe he should go back up to the booth and see what defenses are doing.

My concern is that Arians now becomes bipolar and runs 70% of the time this coming Sunday (which I think is a huge game - it either snuffs the Bengals season or puts them a game back with their New England loss already behind them).

Some coordinator decisions work out (Erhardt, Gailey & Whiz) and some do not (Sherman & Gilbride) - IMO Arians is on thin ice already.
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

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NFL Network has scheduled Steelers-Broncos for NFL Replay at 8 pm EDT this Wednesday. I will watch it to see what was going on with the D.
Stoked. I picked the right game to allow my priorities to get in the way of football.

Fortunately that is not habit-forming.
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:39 PM   #27
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

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Show me ONE... just ONE of Cowher's teams that would have been able to pick up 2 touchdowns in the fourth quarter and put us in the position to tie/win?

.
i just gotta add the 95 steelers who had the most effective 2 minute drill that year (it rivaled that of jim kellys aging bills). steelers scored more points in the final 2 minutes of a half than anybody, and like they showed in the regular season against the colts (i believe), they had no problem scoring 2 td's in the final 2 minutes of a half.

we were deep at wr 1-5. throw in k. stewart, e. green, m. breuner, and the running game of bam morris and e. pegram, and we could score on anybody, from anywhere, at anytime (as long as o'donnell wasnt screwing it up in the sb)
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

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Originally Posted by Atlanta Dan View Post
Peter King believes WR is a deep position you can pick up in the later rounds - i agree with King you spend your $$$ on who is throwing the ball, so spending yet another #1 on a WR (they have used 3 of 9 #1 picks on WR since 1999) does not make sense to me with the other needs (OL!!!!!) this team needs to fill.

For better or worse the Steelers had a first class deep threat (and head case) with Plax - I believe they made the correct choice with signing Ward and letting Plax go, but with Ward's contract I think at this point they have to figure out why Holmes is not being showcased rather than throw more $$$ at the problem.

As for the stats on who is responsible for INTs, my bet is NFL personnel men keep those sorts of stats but waiting to see how the "official scorer" would decide if the turnover was the QB's fault is probably not something the NFL officials (or fantasy football players) are ready to measure officially.

As for Arians, I just think he goes into a game with a plan (I admit I was yelling at him in the Arizona game for running too much) and will not deviate from it. He opened up with the pass, had success on the first series,and then rode it into the ground until halftime. When the pass first strategy was not working last night he was not flexible enough to change it until Tomlin told him to do so at halftime - maybe he should go back up to the booth and see what defenses are doing.

My concern is that Arians now becomes bipolar and runs 70% of the time this coming Sunday (which I think is a huge game - it either snuffs the Bengals season or puts them a game back with their New England loss already behind them).

Some coordinator decisions work out (Erhardt, Gailey & Whiz) and some do not (Sherman & Gilbride) - IMO Arians is on thin ice already.

Yes. And the thought of another "We Need a Receiver" tremor leaves me shaking my head. We have enough fire power catching footballs especially with our tight ends feasting in the end zone.

And if our TE's are not blocking then our linemen ought to be. And if Arians can't find plays that don't require Ben to camp out deep in the pocket then it's apparent he's not right for the job.

When our Pro Bowler Marvel Smith needs Davenport to help hold down one rusher the size of Santonio Holmes or Hines Wards is not the first thing that comes to mind for the upcoming draft.
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

Just adding my two cents here, but I got a little tired of the Steelers running Parker between the tackles in obvious running situations with 2 TE's and 8-9 guys in the box, then throwing the ball in obvious passing situations with empty backfields and 4-5 wide. There is such a thing as running the ball from the spread formation, or passing from the I-formation with 2 TE's. I know because I've seen them do it before. Just not much last night.

I was disappointed with some of the playaction calls, too. Why run playaction fakes to Willie in obvious passing situations when they never hand the ball to him from the same formations in possible running situations? Why not just give him the ball? And draw plays CAN be called in situations other than 3rd and long.

Just not happy with the playcalling last night, although that was only part of the problem.
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:59 PM   #30
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Default Re: The non-existent "vertical game"

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Yes. And the thought of another "We Need a Receiver" tremor leaves me shaking my head. We have enough fire power catching footballs especially with our tight ends feasting in the end zone.

And if our TE's are not blocking then our linemen ought to be. And if Arians can't find plays that don't require Ben to camp out deep in the pocket then it's apparent he's not right for the job.

When our Pro Bowler Marvel Smith needs Davenport to help hold down one rusher the size of Santonio Holmes or Hines Wards is not the first thing that comes to mind for the upcoming draft.
I agree on the draft... I actually think this may be the one time we need to pick up a WR in FA. Someone who is proven and can get the job done on deep routes.
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