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Old 11-05-2007, 12:08 PM   #11
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

You really think that Earnhardt could just have some hick sit on the box and he'd win today?
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:17 PM   #12
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

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Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
You really think that Earnhardt could just have some hick sit on the box and he'd win today?
Oh, so now you're making excuses for Gordon as well? The bottom line in this debate is simple, Jeff Gordon does not belong in the conversation about the best drivers in the history of stock car racing. The only modern driver who belongs in that conversation is Tony Stewart.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:36 AM   #13
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

Based on...............................................?

Before you go off on some other crazy tangent, you DO know that most of the star drivers from 20 years ago probably wouldn't even make the cut for truck racing now, right?

And the simple reason is talent. The talent pool is 50X greater now. These guys like Gordon are like the Tiger Woods of golf. Now kids are racing from the time they are 6 and they are racing everywhere in the Country, not just the bible belt. F-1 used to laugh at the hillibillies in the Chevy's, now they are signing up to race. Those old timers were pioneers, but they couldn't hang with todays drivers. I'm sure you'll tell me I'm full of shit or whatever, and that's fine. That won't, however, change the facts at hand.

By the way, Tony Stewart does deserved to be mentioned as the best NASCAR driver today. Him and Gordon are dead even.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

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Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
Based on...............................................?

Before you go off on some other crazy tangent, you DO know that most of the star drivers from 20 years ago probably wouldn't even make the cut for truck racing now, right?

And the simple reason is talent. The talent pool is 50X greater now. These guys like Gordon are like the Tiger Woods of golf. Now kids are racing from the time they are 6 and they are racing everywhere in the Country, not just the bible belt. .
i'd say the superstars of nascar 20 years ago were dale earnhardt and richard petty (possibly dw). so by "stars" i will assume the bill elliots, bobby allisons, harry gants, rusty wallaces, rudds, labontes, and martins (and i'll throw in tim richmond and alan kulwicki cause they were close enough to 20 years ago and never really had the chance to shine).

not only would the majority of these guys build and set up their car, they would drive circles around the truck series drivers of today. most of the young modern drivers would be nothing more than glorified local go-cart heros without their bachelor degree crew chiefs and doctorates of engineering building their engines, backed by multi-million dollar enterprises..

guys like bobby hamilton (rip) and ted musgrave who could barely hang in winston cup back then, can barely dominate the truck series nowadays. ron hornaday is what he is... a great truck series driver at best. like they say, you cant teach speed. you either got it or you dont, and the fastest man on earth is most likely gonna win a race whether he is racing against 10 or 100.

but it really is different now from 20 years ago. back then it didnt pay to put a kid in a car (especially if even the best teams couldnt afford to be rebuilding cars every other weekend).

recruiting and scouting is alot heavier now than then too. back then, potential drivers came to NASCAR, it didnt really go looking for them.

regardless, stars of 20 years ago would simply slaughter the truck series today, much worse than cup series drivers currently dominate the busch series.
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:31 AM   #15
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

The sport was pulling from one region of one country and had very little popularity outside that region. Now it's pulling talent from everywhere in the World and THAT'S why you see kids getting contracts now. And technology. It used to be that 3 rednecks with a toolbox could keep these cars on the tracks. No more.

It's completely counterintuitive to think that a talent pool of a few million produced better drivers than the talent pool of a few billion, but....I already know once you've made up your mind that you're right, NOTHING will change it, so why bother?
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:12 AM   #16
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

This doesn't completely prove my point, but nothing will because those old time stock car drivers are sacred cows and nobody is going to write about how they'd never be able to hang with the drivers today, but it illustrates how NASCAR IS pulling talent that it never had before. And, again, my point is all based on common sense anyway. A talent pool of billions produces better talent that a talent pool of millions.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor...c-alumni_x.htm

Drivers diverted to NASCAR from Indy 500 pipeline
By Chris Jenkins, USA TODAY
RICHMOND, Va. — After Saturday night's NASCAR Nextel Cup race, driver Tony Stewart said officials at the United States Auto Club (USAC) should be "pretty proud."
Officials at the Indy Racing League, meanwhile, should be jealous.

The top three finishers — winner Kasey Kahne, Stewart and third-place finisher Ryan Newman— all grew up racing in USAC, a developmental racing league that used to be the main talent pipeline to the Indianapolis 500. Now it is becoming the preferred prerequisite to racing in the Nextel Cup series.

"The three of us dominated the race," Stewart said. (Related story: Kahne scores first Nextel Cup victory)

The main types of cars raced in USAC, called sprint cars and midgets, look and drive like miniature Indy-style cars. So it was only natural that USAC racing, which is most popular in Midwestern and Western states, for years produced new stars for Indy cars. Young drivers looking to make it in NASCAR traditionally drove late models, less powerful versions of stock cars, at tracks in Southeastern states.

But that's beginning to change, thanks in part to Jeff Gordon. Gordon starred in USAC as a teenager and wanted to drive Indy cars but was told he'd need to bring his own corporate sponsors if he wanted to drive at Indy. Gordon didn't have the backing, so he tried stock cars and never looked back.

As NASCAR has increased in popularity over the past decade, more USAC drivers have followed Gordon's path, even native sons of Indiana such as Stewart, who drove in the IRL for a few years and won a championship before moving on to NASCAR, and Newman, who went straight to NASCAR. The result is more U.S. talent in NASCAR and less U.S. talent at Indy.

And it's clear that the former USAC drivers in NASCAR feel a bond; Stewart walked over to congratulate Kahne after the race.

"They've helped me so much, Tony has, watching Jeff Gordon and Ryan Newman that have done so much for USAC and sprint cars," Kahne said. "It's great to be able to race with them all night and race clean and hard."
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:15 AM   #17
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

Eh, what the Hell. Here's what Ricky Craven had to say about "that fag, the second most overrated piece of crap".

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news?...yhoo&type=lgns

The best ever?

By Ricky Craven, Yahoo! Sports
October 10, 2007



I have always been passionate about sports. As a New England boy growing up in Newburgh, Maine, I looked forward each day to the sports pages of the Bangor Daily News. I needed only to look to Page One to get the previous day’s results on the Boston Red Sox, Boston Celtics or New England Patriots.

I grew up in the Larry Bird era. He was, arguably, one of the best basketball players to ever tie up a pair of Converse sneakers. Bird was an exceptional shooter and has the career points to confirm it. But he was more than just a three-point shooter or a clutch free-throw shooter when his team needed it most.

Bird could pass the ball and play defense better than most would give him credit. I remember the debates back in the 1980s of who was better: Larry Bird, Magic Johnson or Dr. J. There was no clear winner – each was talented and successful in their own unique way.

I was in my first automobile race in the spring of 1982, at a track in Unity, Maine. Since my debut behind the wheel, I have raced across the country, throughout Canada and as far away as Japan. A common question I am asked is, "Who is the best you have ever competed against?"

It's a common question from enthusiasts of all sports, but not an easy one to answer.


I raced one time against Richard Petty. He would be a logical and popular choice. His 200 career wins are the sport's best and will not be exceeded.

Dale Earnhardt was the absolute best at winning races and not caring how he looked doing it. Although he never appeared to be a great qualifier, there is no equal when it came to closing the deal on race day or coming out on top of a door-to-door battle.

Earnhardt defined the attitude that you have to hate losing more than you love winning. He won the majority of his races because his talent and desire were unmatched, and he won a few because his front bumper was within striking distance of the leader. Regardless of how he did it, he was a winner, his presence was unique and anyone who had the fortune of competing with him felt it.

He also would be a logical choice.

Part of my criteria for being the best to ever wheel a race car would be fundamentals, like car control. Harry Gant and I battled for a Busch Series win at New Hampshire International Speedway in October of 1991. I went to victory lane that day and carried with me an appreciation of being able to race side by side, as hard as possible, with a true professional. Gant allowed me to race to his outside while squeezing every ounce of speed from his car to my inside.

He left me barely enough room to exit the corners without hitting the wall – or about a fraction of an inch between our cars. He was one of only a few drivers who could demonstrate that ability, at any track, lap after lap.

Matt Kenseth is today’s version of Gant. Matt makes very few mistakes from the driver’s seat and has the gift of going very fast without looking fast.

Kenseth always appears in control and has a Nextel Cup championship as a result of his terrific driving ability.

Both Kenseth and Gant are very good and would certainly get nominations for the best driver.

I can go back to my early days and mention drivers like Robbie Crouch, Mike Rowe and Dave Dion. All are very good and I learned a tremendous amount from them. Without being exposed to them, I would not have won my first Nextel Cup race, at least not at Martinsville. All three are experts at short-track racing, which brings me to my next point.

To be the very best that I have ever seen you would have to be a balanced driver. With the ability to win at all disciplines of racing: short tracks, intermediate and super speedways. The two road course events on the Nextel Cup schedule help narrow the field. Some drivers like road racing, some hate it. Only a few have consistently succeeded on the road course.

And finally, the driver would have to have won a championship to confirm being consistently good and ultimately the best. The driver I consider the best I have ever competed against has won a championship, in fact he has the distinction of being a multi-year champion with the added significance of doing it with two different crew chiefs.

He is among the top ten in all time Nextel Cup wins and is the only current driver with a reasonable chance of being as high as second on the list, before hanging up his helmet.

Like Bird, this driver has more than phenomenal statistics to separate him from the rest. He has the ability to get the most from an average race car and his worst days equal some driver's best.

Like other exceptional athletes, he combines above-average talent with a commitment and work ethic to be the best. He understands his car better than most drivers, but more important, understands and communicates precisely what he needs to make his car go fast.

When the car won’t perform to its potential, he has the depth and experience to make adjustments inside the car using his hands and feet to manipulate speed.

Jeff Gordon has consistently performed at a higher level than all others I have competed against. His four championships are the most among active drivers. Like most champions, he uses all resources to find ways to win. His quest for a fifth title was enhanced by his last-lap pass to win Talladega last week.

Regardless of whether you’re a Gordon fan or not, you have to respect the numbers he has achieved and the way he finds ways to win.

If this year’s championship comes down to the final lap of the final race, I would expect Gordon to find a way to come out on top.
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Old 11-08-2007, 11:17 AM   #18
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

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Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
The sport was pulling from one region of one country and had very little popularity outside that region. Now it's pulling talent from everywhere in the World and THAT'S why you see kids getting contracts now. And technology. It used to be that 3 rednecks with a toolbox could keep these cars on the tracks. No more.

It's completely counterintuitive to think that a talent pool of a few million produced better drivers than the talent pool of a few billion, but....I already know once you've made up your mind that you're right, NOTHING will change it, so why bother?
im gonna have to adress some of this absurdity in stages. common sense told me you would simply back off your claim that the nascar stars of 20 years ago were outclassed talentwise by the folks in the truck series today.

heres a link to all the 117 drivers who have made the field in the truck series this year. i have cropped the top 17 drivers to show that ONLY 15 of them in the truck series are capable of even making every race.

http://www.nascar.com/races/truck/20..._official.html

Quote:
RANK +/- DRIVER POINTS BEHIND STARTS POLES WINS TOP 5 TOP 10 WINNINGS
1 +1 Mike Skinner 3718 Leader 23 10 5 17 19 714,550
2 -1 Ron Hornaday 3661 -57 23 1 4 12 20 629,425
3 -- Travis Kvapil 3317 -401 23 3 4 8 12 559,375
4 +1 Todd Bodine 3254 -464 23 2 2 10 15 538,725
5 +1 Rick Crawford 3231 -487 23 0 0 10 17 408,225
6 -2 Johnny Benson 3221 -497 23 0 3 11 17 563,535
7 -- Ted Musgrave 2944 -774 22 0 1 7 15 393,400
8 -- Matt Crafton 2812 -906 23 0 0 1 10 305,025
9 +1 Jack Sprague 2752 -966 23 2 1 6 9 436,535
10 +1 Erik Darnell 2726 -992 23 0 1 3 8 347,325
11 -2 David Starr 2716 -1002 23 0 0 3 4 295,450
12 +1 Brendan Gaughan 2646 -1072 23 0 0 3 8 330,967
13 -1 Dennis Setzer 2637 -1081 23 0 1 2 5 320,130
14 -- Terry Cook 2468 -1250 23 0 0 1 4 269,665
15 -- Willie Allen* 2333 -1385 23 0 0 0 1 263,375
16 -- Tim Sauter* 2276 -1442 23 0 0 0 1 250,045
17 -- Chad McCumbee 2075 -1643 21 0 0 0 1 233,950
the best of the best in the truck series looks to be a bunch of old cup washouts. seriously, which of these (or any of the 117) wouldnt lose their ride in seconds to a dw, martin, rudd, wallace, allison, gant, etc, etc.? the pioneers would most certainly make the cut.

and the technological advances of the trucks is the absolute worst example to use, bacause when you listen to the drivers who drove the winston cup cars from 20 years ago and the trucks of today, they all pretty much say how the trucks are much more like the stock cars were back then when compared to the current car of today.

Quote:
And, again, my point is all based on common sense anyway. A talent pool of billions produces better talent that a talent pool of millions.
now its my turn to use some common sense (again). this talent pool of billions (you also said a few billion) is a complete fabrication so i cant accept that as common sense. heres why-

population of earth is around 6.5 billion or something. common sense says race car drivers arent being scouted from half the population of the world.

how many of the entire earths population even owns a car? or even driven one? its not like we are plucking kids off their bicycles from the streets of bejing, or bushmen out of the serengeti and putting them in race cars.

now im not gonna get into all the sociology behind world population/povery levels but common sense says drivers arent being found in these pools:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Facts.asp

Quote:
Water problems affect half of humanity:
Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.
Quote:
Half the world — nearly three billion people — live on less than two dollars a day. source 1
Quote:
Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names. source 3
billions of people dont even tune in to watch the superbowl (i believe the estimation is about 1 billion) so how can i believe their are billions of people out there watching racing and aspiring to be a driver? its one thing to sell baseball to kids in the dominican or soccer in the congo. common sense tells me im not gonna sell them a go-cart though.

kenyans may dominate the boston marathon but i can guarantee a person from kenya will never dominate any form of american motorsports.

so, census stats and the semantics of what "billions" is, aside, these are really 2 undebatable points. there is no pool of billions, and the nascar stars of yesteryear would simply kick the crap out of the talent packed field of the truck series today. and you are right.... i wont back down from those points.

however there are alot of debatable points still left over such as gordons phantom 5th ring and several others such as this that i will touch on later:

Quote:
And technology. It used to be that 3 rednecks with a toolbox could keep these cars on the tracks. No more.
yeah, and snoopy could pilot the sopwith camel
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

since were talking technology and talent pools to "pilot" a vehicle, im gonna use airplanes along with your premise.

its safe to say that the u.s. military draws on the talent pool from within the borders to fly the jets. would the air force be stronger and filled with better and more talented pilots if we drew from the talent pool of billions you mention? i doubt it. im pretty confident of the govt and its endless resources to teach and train the people to "be all they can be". can a foreigner learn to do it as good or better? possibly. is that simply because they are a foreigner from a much larger talent pool? of course not.

now to the technological aspect and another airplane analogy. without a doubt the vehicles today are much more advanced as is aircraft. so i ask you, who is the better pilot? the WWII flying ace who was a master at dog fighting? or the stealth f-117 fighter pilot who drops bombs on baghdad with surgical precision? both takes equal amounts of endurance, stamina, hand eye coordination, balls, i.e. talent.

a stealth pilot can certainly fly a crop duster, and chuck yaeger could certainly learn how to fly an f-15.

for what its worth, the stealth is so technologically advanced, that in basic theory, it shouldnt even fly. its a triangular shaped pyramid that doesnt even have wings. the pilot is pretty much a passenger, who makes minor adjustments to the computerized flight plan and drops the ordinance. the plane basically flies itself, and if the competer controlls fail, there isnt much the pilot can do except for fall out of the sky with it.
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

Well, the truck thing was a joke, but I should really know better. And all the stuff about talent pools increasing is basically true, no matter how much you dissect it. The FACT remains that NASCAR pulled from a very small segment of just the population of this country, and is now pulling from every Country that has auto racing. Billions? Maybe not. Hundreds of millions? Certainly. And no matter how you shake it out, whether it be football or soccer or golf or basketball or auto racing, if there are more people exposed to a sport, greater talent will emerge. Look at the NBA. There are a TON of European players, and China is next. It's statistically impossible for that not to be the case, though. But I literally can't wait for you to show me how it's not.

As for the technology argument, you're comparing apple and oranges. The WWII comparison was particularly off. Your argument would make sense if today's pilots and WWII pilots were still using the smae basic technology, but they aren't. NASCAR is still essentially using 60's pushrod engine technology. My point was that the cars are even MORE sensitive and HARDER to drive now because the technological advances make changes to the suspensions more dramatic and make set-ups from car to car much more dramatically different from each other.

Again, it's unpopular, because nobody would ever call out the scared cows who pioneered the sport, but it's no different than football. 90% of the players elected who played before the 60's wouldn't even be able to play in the league now, but they were certainly great given relative competition level they played against in their era. If you took Gant, Pearson, Petty, Yarborough and Junior Johnson in their prime and stuck them in IROC cars with Gordon, Kenseth, Johnson, Stewart and Kurt Busch, the latter guys would trounce the former.
Guess what? All the former guys are from the Southeast US, and the latter are from California, Wisconsin, Indiana and Las Vegas.
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