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Old 11-09-2007, 09:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

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Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
Well, the truck thing was a joke, but I should really know better. And all the stuff about talent pools increasing is basically true, no matter how much you dissect it. The FACT remains that NASCAR pulled from a very small segment of just the population of this country, and is now pulling from every Country that has auto racing. Billions? Maybe not. Hundreds of millions? Certainly. And no matter how you shake it out, whether it be football or soccer or golf or basketball or auto racing, if there are more people exposed to a sport, greater talent will emerge. Look at the NBA. There are a TON of European players, and China is next. It's statistically impossible for that not to be the case, though. But I literally can't wait for you to show me how it's not.

As for the technology argument, you're comparing apple and oranges. The WWII comparison was particularly off. Your argument would make sense if today's pilots and WWII pilots were still using the smae basic technology, but they aren't. NASCAR is still essentially using 60's pushrod engine technology. My point was that the cars are even MORE sensitive and HARDER to drive now because the technological advances make changes to the suspensions more dramatic and make set-ups from car to car much more dramatically different from each other.

Again, it's unpopular, because nobody would ever call out the scared cows who pioneered the sport, but it's no different than football. 90% of the players elected who played before the 60's wouldn't even be able to play in the league now, but they were certainly great given relative competition level they played against in their era. If you took Gant, Pearson, Petty, Yarborough and Junior Johnson in their prime and stuck them in IROC cars with Gordon, Kenseth, Johnson, Stewart and Kurt Busch, the latter guys would trounce the former.
Guess what? All the former guys are from the Southeast US, and the latter are from California, Wisconsin, Indiana and Las Vegas.
ok. with no more exaggerations of truck series drivers able to successfully return apollo 13 back to earth, or more people being lined up to drive a car than mcdonalds has served, i am willing to listen.

more sensitive and harder to drive? i wonder what the old schoolers who didnt have power steering would have to say about that.

i would like to see a race with d. pearson in his prime against current drivers in equal, slower wattered down stock cars. but then again i'd rather watch guys like b. elliot, earnhardt, petty, dust kids on the unrestricted tracks of daytona and talledega.

what is it in non southerns genes that makes the newer non souther drivers so much more superior?

(keep in mind, i hate the south, never have lived in the south, and never wanna go to the south)

as a NM, CA, and AZ kid, im all for the integration of drivers in nascar.

as for the WWII pilot analogy, i will have to bring the subject up to the next few stealth pilots i encounter. i dont know if it will prove anything, but it would be interesting to get there perspective. my contention is an old school wwII pilot has enough brain capacity to learn how to fly a modern plane, and a new school pilot can just as easilly fly some old crop duster.

from what i understand from past conversations is the stealth pilots can pretty much take a nap as they cross the atlantic.

technology makes things so much more difficult.

im not so sure my analogy is apples and oranges whn you look at the point. simple physics dictates what a plane or car will do. genetics will dictate whether yao ming or dkembe mtumbo is over 7 feet tall or if kenyans are the most prolific long distance runners.

i dont know how you can prove the opinion that if gordon were face to face in 10 races with the past greats (in a watered down iroc car) he would win the majority of the time. from what i remember, dale sr. and mark martin have pretty much dominated it when they were involved.

if he could do that, i would have to believe he could beat the current competition, just as well.
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Old 11-10-2007, 05:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

That’s kind of all over the place, but here goes:

Isn’t it interesting that the last 5 cup winners are NOT from the Southeast? That was, of course, what my list of new drivers was comprised of. There are still plenty of drivers from the SE racing in NASCAR, but they haven’t won anything since 1999 when Jarrett won (Bobby Labonte is from Texas, which is more SW). You have to go back to ’94 for the next driver from the SE to win, and they were all from the Southeast before that. That makes a great case for my argument right there. It’s not a huge stretch to think that a driver from the SE of the US may never win again, considering the increasing influx of talent from the rest of the Country, not to mention the World. In fact, in keeping with my theory, in 20 years, there may not be any drivers from the Southeast US even driving in Cup.

Technology in NASCAR runs counter to other racing series. For example, there would be no way the old time drivers would be able to run a restrictor plate race without power steering. It’s hard enough to keep the cars running inches apart at 190 from hitting each other WITH power steering.

The COT is an extremely difficult car to drive. Ricky Craven again:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news?...yhoo&type=lgns

The open wheel guys struggle with it.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor...s_N.htm?csp=34
"The car was totally unsophisticated then and still is, but it's supposed to be," Wheeler says. "It's made to entertain fans, not engineers ... with people realizing that racing has got to be entertaining."
Allmendinger says he wasn't derided by his Champ Car peers for making the move.
"They all said if you get the opportunity to go and don't, you're an idiot," he says. "There may not be as much technology, but they're the hardest frickin' cars I've ever driven in my life. They're difficult beasts to hang onto."



As for the NBA thing, 50% of the league will be foreign by 2010. And it’s not just 7 footers. The international talent pool is just that much deeper then the relatively small US pool. NASCAR will feel the same impact eventually.

NO fighter pilot will ever concede anything to any other pilot. But apples to oranges is perfect. It takes a much different skill set to fly a plane today then it did in 1942. But a stick and rudder man like Chuck Yeager could fly anything in any era. That type of pilot is rare and only comes along once in a generation. He wouldn’t be qualified to fly, today, by the way, since he wasn’t educated enough.

IROC races were relegated to oval tracks for a long time, which isn’t what they were intended to be. THAT was a perfect format for all these guys from different eras and series to compete. IROC was intended to be run on road courses, and I’m quite confident that the group of drivers I picked would dominate the old timers on road courses, especially Gordon and Stewart. Make them all 30 years old, give them all the exact same car, and throw them all on a road course. Of course it’s a hypothetical, but if it could ever happen, I’m confident my prediction would ring true. By the by, Earnhardt Sr. didn’t win a road course until he was in his mid-40’s.


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Old 11-11-2007, 08:29 AM   #23
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

Texas is the Southwest? Denny Hamlin will never win a Nextel Cup Title? In 20 years no drivers from the American South will even be driving a Sprint Cup stock car? You're really off the deep end on this one buddy.

This international influx you see isn't being driven by the success of the series. With the exception of Franchitti, all the open wheel drivers coming to the sport are guys who couldn't cut it in their series anymore. Montoya, Carpentier, and etc are all drivers who were no longer in the top tier of their series, so they cut bait and ran to stock car racing. The only guy who I think will have any success (meaning Top 12 in the points) is going to be Sam Hornish Jr and that's because he's still young enough to learn the ropes before he gets to be over the hill.

I think you're one of the really annoying members of the "new" fanbase who think they know something about NASCAR, but in reality have very little idea of the history of the sport and it's drivers.
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Old 11-11-2007, 10:20 AM   #24
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

Ruh roh.

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Old 11-11-2007, 04:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

Oh and I wonder if you'd like to put money on that 50% number. Me thinks you've never bothered to watch a game from Europe. Some of the biggest stars in Europe are guys from the US who couldn't cut it in the CBA.
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:50 AM   #26
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

Jeremy is entertaining, for sure. Ready for this one?

Dale Earnhardt Sr IS the most overrated driver of all time.

All the things that Dale Sr fans hate about Gordon actually apply to Sr. He was handed a ride when he was young simply because of who his daddy was(He ran his first Cup race when he was 24) without earning it. It took him twice as long to win his races, a number which Gordon surpassed recently. He won 7 Cups under the old points system. Newsflash: Gordon would be driving away with his 7th next Sunday if it was still the same points system (He would have been 400 points ahead of Johnson before yesterdays race), and again, he'd have accomplished that goal five years faster than Earnhardt.

And I LOVE when Earnhardt fans complain about the way Gordon drives. For the most part, Gordon drives clean 95% of the time, where Earnhardt had a whole different approach to winning. If you were faster, or in his way, Sr. would just wreck you.

Was Earnhardt Sr. a great driver? Yes. Does he deserve top 10? Yes, but the fact is, he was not as talented as Gordon. When it's all said and done, that will be obvious, but it's fun to watch people cling to the good old days.

As for the other stuff, Montoya jumped from F-1 because he rubbed people the wrong way. He was far from washed up. I'm not sure I'd call Jacques Villeneuve washed up. He's only 36, and he DID win F-1. Dario Franchitti won the IRL THIS year. That's hardly washed up.

And, yes, Texas is in the Southwest. Where do you consider it to be? If you Google Southwest US, Texas comes up in every relevant search. Not to mention the fact that Texans consider themselves to be from the Southwest. But what do they know?

The 50% number is not my own. I read that a couple different places when I researched what my responses were going to be here. I'll stick by it. By 2010, half the NBA will be foreign players.

And maybe Hamlin will win a cup. If only one driver from the SE wins one in the next 20 years, how does that disprove my point?

Finally, if I'm a "new" fan, I'm sorry I've only been watching for 15 years. I wonder how much longer I need to watch before I qualify to comment like an old timer like you? Actually, it's interesting that you bring up the history of the sport, since it's looking at the history that drove me to many of the conclusions I've reached.
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Old 11-12-2007, 03:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

I want to clarify. When I call Dale Sr. overrated, I am admittedly splitting hairs. But my point is that I can say anything at all here, just like anybody else. The difference is that I always post some kind of supporting evidence.
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Old 11-12-2007, 04:02 PM   #28
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

Richard Petty is like Father Abraham, from whom sprung the 12 tribes of NASCAR. Dale Earnhardt Sr. is like Moses, who led them to world power and recognition. Jeff Gordon is like Jesus who opened the doors to the Gentiles. Jimmie Johnson isnt close to any of the above and everybody else flat out sucks.

i know it would take a bit of research, but i wonder how many championships petty and earnhardt woulda won with todays chase format.

anyways, congrats to jeff on his 2nd phantom champ to add to his 4 real ones and congrats to jimmie on his 2nd fraud cup in jeffs car and with jeffs team (hendrick).

as for the homestead race, it may be the 1st race since watching, that i intentionally dont tune in. i already know the outcome (hendrick wins all away around) and it reminds me an awful lot of the '93 finale. r. wallace needed to lead the most laps and win with dale sr. finishing 19th or worse (something like that).

rusty did his part, and dale finished 12th (or something like that) to win the cup.

2 hendric wins this sunday. gordon for the race and jj for the cup.
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Old 11-12-2007, 05:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: the "Jeff Gordon has never won this race 500"

I guess that makes me a Gentile.

I can answer the question about Petty. He would have won all 7, maybe more. He was the original cheater in NASCAR, and was way better equipped compared to his competition than Hendrick or Roush is now. But he's a sacred cow, so...

I'm guessing Dale Sr would have been there, too. In a race format, I suspect he'd wreck the other 9 or 11 cars (depending on the format) in 2 or 10 races in order to win.

And Stewart is a world class driver. I think Kenseth is excellent, too.
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