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Old 04-06-2009, 04:15 PM   #11
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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Three answers. . .

China, N. Korea, Russia.
North Korea?

I can understand the other two, but seriously, North Korea? I don't think they could even beat some of our better street gangs. They make a lot of noise, but from everything I've seen, they're completely incompetent.
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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Three answers. . .

China, N. Korea, Russia.
I understand that, but seriously...technology is at a point where we can shoot planes out of the freaking sky miles away. Air power just isn't the same.

Helicopters and ground support planes, I totally understand...but fighters? I am not saying get rid of them all, but wow, are we spending a lot of money for, what amounts to, practice planes.
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

Speaking of which...anyone catch the pic recently of the two fighter pilots showing terrible towels in the coocckkpit while flying a mission over Afghanistan? I know one of them, went to college with him.

(It's funny I had to intentionally mispell c**kpit!!! LOL!!!)
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

Therein lies the rub...There is such a huge disparity between the design phase and the production phase that if we "skip" a beat, a new emerging power (i.e. China) could actually leap us in Air Superiority. And the force that controls the sky, controls the war...
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

That is a cool video. I watched them at an airshow in Pittsburgh a couple of years ago. It is simply amazing what those planes can do.
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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Therein lies the rub...There is such a huge disparity between the design phase and the production phase that if we "skip" a beat, a new emerging power (i.e. China) could actually leap us in Air Superiority. And the force that controls the sky, controls the war...
At least according to Mitchel's air superiority argument.
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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North Korea?

I can understand the other two, but seriously, North Korea? I don't think they could even beat some of our better street gangs. They make a lot of noise, but from everything I've seen, they're completely incompetent.
Don't confuse political leadership with a professional military. The only question here, is if Kim Jong Ill has seen fit to execute the military leaders with competency. As much as China is against an aggressive N. Korea, I HIGHLY suspect they are selling armament to N. Korea...

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I understand that, but seriously...technology is at a point where we can shoot planes out of the freaking sky miles away. Air power just isn't the same.

Helicopters and ground support planes, I totally understand...but fighters? I am not saying get rid of them all, but wow, are we spending a lot of money for, what amounts to, practice planes.
Right, but don't forget the lessons in vietnam. Because our pilots were depending on missiles so much, we almost lost air superiority. Furthermore, we have yet to go up against a top-rate defense system. Iraq in the first war was closer, but it still wasn't top rate. Now, if we face off with china? You can bet that we will lose a LOT of planes... and pilots.

Personally, I am glad for the rumblings I have heard concerning the military revisiting their standing readiness. I have heard that there are discussions about going back to a 2 Major conflict- 1 minor conflict readiness. That is, they are large enough to fight two major wars AND a minor war at the same time. That WAS the cold war standard before all the cutbacks.

It is time we go back to that.
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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Exactly. Air superiority today is more like, can you afford to have ANY modern planes or can't you? The dozen or so countries that can afford to blow $100M-plus per aircraft don't get into wars with each other, and they'll automatically win any war against the mid-major countries that use old Soviet stuff, or the Division II countries with no air force at all.

In fact, I think that's what the JSF is all about: Once you're in that elite club, there are just a handful of options for top-of-the-line fighters, and nobody's got anything that's leaps and bounds ahead of anything else.

As a fan of military jets, I hate to see the Raptor go. Of course, the existing one's could have decades of service yet. But, even many Republicans wanted to kill the F-22. Funny thing about big weapons programs is that they take so long from design to implementation, and they are often so expensive to kill after they are in production, that the Administration associated with the program isn't always the one that got it started, or supported it to begin with. Reagan was so vilified by his opponents for his support for the B2, but it was under Carter that the program was approved,

The F-22 is awesome, but it isn't worth the expense of further production. The USA would still have such a huge advantage over China in "command and control" in any air war that, while we would lose many planes, I have little doubt we would prevail in the air. Besides, the existing F-22 and the JSF are more than a match for any air force in the world.

For most of the conflicts the USA is likely to enter these days we should probably build more "Specter" gun ships and the A-10's (although that won't happen), as well as the previously mentioned unmanned platforms.

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Old 04-06-2009, 05:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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Don't confuse political leadership with a professional military. The only question here, is if Kim Jong Ill has seen fit to execute the military leaders with competency. As much as China is against an aggressive N. Korea, I HIGHLY suspect they are selling armament to N. Korea...
I'm not confusing the two, so much as I think North Korea's military is probably pretty incompetent as well. All their public displays of might have gone wrong, and the country usually barely even has enough essential supplies to make it through the week, much less wage a war. They strike me as kind of like Iraq's army before the first Gulf War -- lots of soldiers, but not very effective and with probably no air power to speak of. Any modern army would probably crush them.

It would be a little worrisome if they were getting shit from China, but judging by how well their last rocket launch went, it doesn't look like it. But in either case, countries like China and Russia might sell some weapons to other countries, but notice how they never give them enough help that they can be as effective as China or Russia themselves. That's been the pattern for decades.
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Old 04-06-2009, 06:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

I still think we are 20 years ahead of what we think we know. Black ops are the hot and sexy right now.

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