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Old 04-17-2009, 10:53 AM   #21
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

Look, I think its cool these guys want to join the US Army, I've nothing against Sikhs, reading up on their history, they are pretty tough people and usually on the right side of fights.

But...to be in the Army, you must follow the rules. That means, Shave and a Hair Cut.

That's the rules. So don't change them for anyone otherwise you'll have to start letting openly gay guys wear pink Uniforms and for guys with Russian Heritage to wear commie Red uniforms.

You dress the part, you where the US Colors, or you don't participate. Bottom line.
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:13 AM   #22
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

Somehow, I don't think protective headgear is high on the list of equipment needed to serve as a dentist. I know it's important to follow procedure in the military, but this seems like a situation where just exercising a little common-sense judgment could make things turn out happily for everyone. Being that adamant about sticking to the rules even when the situation really doesn't call for it is just stubborn.

I went to school with a few people who were of the Sikh faith, and I've got to say, this is not your usual religious-trinket dispute like whether it's optional to wear a necklace or something like that. It's, like one of the seven fundamental things that's hugely important to them from birth. It'd be like telling one of those Orthodox Jews with the hats and the long-ass beards that they had to eat pork and couldn't pray from now on, only about ten times more so.

Bottom line for me is, yeah, if these guys were supposed to be front-line troops, this probably wouldn't fly. So fine, disqualify them from any of the jobs where you have to wear a helmet. If they want to make themselves useful somewhere, go for it.
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:18 AM   #23
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

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Originally Posted by SteelersinCA View Post
I don't want a bunch of people just by bending the rules. Regiment is what makes the military work. Where do you stop bending rules?
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Look, I think its cool these guys want to join the US Army, I've nothing against Sikhs, reading up on their history, they are pretty tough people and usually on the right side of fights.

But...to be in the Army, you must follow the rules. That means, Shave and a Hair Cut.

That's the rules. So don't change them for anyone otherwise you'll have to start letting openly gay guys wear pink Uniforms and for guys with Russian Heritage to wear commie Red uniforms.

You dress the part, you where the US Colors, or you don't participate. Bottom line.
Well, they're not asking 2 wear any skirts or kimonos. All they're asking is to keep their beards & turbans on. I'm sure they realize the possible future negative outcomes from this, but they're asking 4 it 4 themselves. If something happens, they're 2 blame. It's that simple. Just a beard & turban.
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:20 AM   #24
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

They don't realize the future negative outcomes at all. The Deal is You wear the Army Green, you get the High and Tight, and you shave. There is a reason you shave. It is for the protection provided by NBC, Nuclear Biological Chemical, Gear specifically the Gas Mask. You must be clean shaven for the Seal to properly set.

Its standard. Its the Rule. Either Shave and Cut the hair and put on the cap, or go join the Peace Corp and get your rocks off helping people that way.
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Old 04-17-2009, 01:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

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Somehow, I don't think protective headgear is high on the list of equipment needed to serve as a dentist.
Ever been forward deployed? Ever seen the doctors and medical staff in the rear of a combat brigade? They wear flak jackets and everything when stuff gets thick. Do we now make turban conforming kevlar helmets? Do we say, "hey you asked for it, sorry that mortar threw shrapnel in your head?"

Somehow I don't think that's the way to go. I went through basic 14 years ago, but I'm pretty sure the Kevlar helmet is still the standard combat headwear.
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Old 04-17-2009, 01:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

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Well, they're not asking 2 wear any skirts or kimonos. All they're asking is to keep their beards & turbans on. I'm sure they realize the possible future negative outcomes from this, but they're asking 4 it 4 themselves. If something happens, they're 2 blame. It's that simple. Just a beard & turban.
So if they die because they are allowed to not wear a helmet when it could have saved them and now that unit is without a doctor and more people suffer because the Sikh who didn't have to wear a helmet, that's OK too?

After all, he's only asking for it for himself. And that would be the perfect counter argument to allowing them to wear it. It's selfish and self serving, something the military doesn't have a need or room for.
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Old 04-17-2009, 09:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

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So if they die because they are allowed to not wear a helmet when it could have saved them and now that unit is without a doctor and more people suffer because the Sikh who didn't have to wear a helmet, that's OK too?

After all, he's only asking for it for himself. And that would be the perfect counter argument to allowing them to wear it. It's selfish and self serving, something the military doesn't have a need or room for.

Damn good point.
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Old 04-18-2009, 06:27 AM   #28
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

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Originally Posted by Dino 6 Rings View Post
They don't realize the future negative outcomes at all. The Deal is You wear the Army Green, you get the High and Tight, and you shave. There is a reason you shave. It is for the protection provided by NBC, Nuclear Biological Chemical, Gear specifically the Gas Mask. You must be clean shaven for the Seal to properly set.

Its standard. Its the Rule. Either Shave and Cut the hair and put on the cap, or go join the Peace Corp and get your rocks off helping people that way.
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Ever been forward deployed? Ever seen the doctors and medical staff in the rear of a combat brigade? They wear flak jackets and everything when stuff gets thick. Do we now make turban conforming kevlar helmets? Do we say, "hey you asked for it, sorry that mortar threw shrapnel in your head?"

Somehow I don't think that's the way to go. I went through basic 14 years ago, but I'm pretty sure the Kevlar helmet is still the standard combat headwear.
This is a 21st Century. Anything is possible. Let em have specially designed helmet & even a gas mask if they want & make em pay 4 it. Wasn't there sometime where the families of the troops were sending all kinds of bulletproof vests & etc. when the military couldn't supply the troops with proper bulletproof vest?

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So if they die because they are allowed to not wear a helmet when it could have saved them and now that unit is without a doctor and more people suffer because the Sikh who didn't have to wear a helmet, that's OK too?

After all, he's only asking for it for himself. And that would be the perfect counter argument to allowing them to wear it. It's selfish and self serving, something the military doesn't have a need or room for.
Selfish? They're not sneaking out of a country 2 Canada, R they? They' said they'll B with U only if ...

OK, like I said before, I'm not here 2 start an endless debate. Now it is more becoming like I'm a some foreigner who is trying 2 teach U how the US army should B like. All I did was 2 try 2 show U the other side of a coin, & there is more 2 it than what U thought at the moment. But what do I know? I've never been with the military. & since U guys been with the military I know U guys R entitled 2 say what's it like in the army & maybe how it should stay. Thanks 4 sharing your views.
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Old 04-18-2009, 07:47 AM   #29
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

There are many things to consider here.

1 - There really isn't a debate because the Army has a Standard that it expects every Soldier to abide by.

2 - There really isn't a debate because if the Army allows the Sikh to tilt that standard, then many other medially proficient (at a minimum) "Soldiers" will expect to have the standard tilted some in their favor.

3 - There really isn't a debate because in the Army, we are all "Soldier's" first. Even our Chaplains have to abide by the standards of the Army. If the Religious leaders have to abide by the standard set forth, why in the hell wouldn't a dentist?

4 - There really isn't a debate because there are serious safety implications involved with not having a beard and not wearing a Turban. These were state previously. The NBC mask seal around a beard...and the ACH (the new Kevlar) definitely doesn't fit around a turban.
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Old 04-18-2009, 07:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

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Well, they're not asking 2 wear any skirts or kimonos. .
that would be the french military.......
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