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Old 06-19-2009, 12:19 AM   #61
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
what do you consider it when a guy gets behind the wheel sober and kills someone?

not to make light of the situation, but i have spilt less beer drunk, than glasses of milk or soda while sober, and either way, it was never intentional.

what is being lost here is that 2 years on "house arrest" and another 8 on probation, is pretty much a life sentence. theres a 1 :100,000 shot he makes it through the 1st 6 months w/o a violation (which means he will have to buy his way out of another sentence... but still).

that is the real travesty here.
It depends on the situation, if it is street racing or some negligence of the driver I have zero tolerance. I worry about my wife and daughter constantly when they are driving without me, and this crap just makes it worse. I never considered it intentional, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that he knew not to drive. A message needs to be sent to people braking the law especially when it impacts innocent victims. I don't think it was a big enough message.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:58 AM   #62
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

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especially when it impacts innocent victims.
You hit the nail on the head. The guy was not innocent. Did he deserve to die? Absolutely not. Had he been completely innocent, Stall worth would be looking at a long long jail sentence, but the guy was not innocent. Like I have said repeatedly, if the death is not the proximate result of the unlawful act it is extremely difficult to get a conviction.

Proximate result is the key to it all. It's akin to a negligence standard in the civil world. There is a comparative fault analysis going on. The difference in criminal is it is a much much higher standard to prove fault.

No one is saying the guy deserved to die, no one is saying 30 days = a human life. People want answers to how this can happen in the legal system and that is exactly how it happens. Everyone has their own idea of justice but consider this. Let's assume Stallworth was about a .12 at the time of driving. There are studies that at a .12 your reaction time is thousandths of a second slower than a sober person. Let's also assume that Stallworth was driving 10 mph over the speed limit and otherwise following all traffic laws. He hits the guy, kills him.

Now the way the law works is once a decision is made in one set of facts you can apply that decision to similar facts to reach the same result. So you are driving down the street 10 mph over the speed limit (not a stretch right?) and a person runs out in front of you and you kill them. A lawyer gets up and argues the Stallworth case is analogous to your situation and you should receive the 10-15 years he got. You say wait a second, I wasn't drinking! Then they point out that even thousandths of a second would not have saved this persons life he would have just impacted your car a couple millimeters over. You go to jail for 10-15 years or whatever you think is "just" for Stallworth. Is that Justice?

Proximate cause/result and innocence are the issue. No one likes to put blame on the guy that got killed but he shares some blame which presents the biggest problem in prosecuting Stallworth, which impacts his sentence.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:32 PM   #63
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

SteelersinCA - It's unfortunate, but there are too many people who will likely choose to ignore what you're saying because they can't get past the "Human Life" issue at hand.

If I cut your wrists and you survive, I get an attempted pre-meditated murder charge. If I cut my wrists and survive...I get psycological treatment...despite the fact that I have attempted (in both cases) to take a "human life."

I expect that for most of those you are arguing with, they only use fine distinction when it suits their agenda...and won't bother to change their agenda with logic.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:54 PM   #64
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

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SteelersinCA - It's unfortunate, but there are too many people who will likely choose to ignore what you're saying because they can't get past the "Human Life" issue at hand.

If I cut your wrists and you survive, I get an attempted pre-meditated murder charge. If I cut my wrists and survive...I get psycological treatment...despite the fact that I have attempted (in both cases) to take a "human life."

I expect that for most of those you are arguing with, they only use fine distinction when it suits their agenda...and won't bother to change their agenda with logic.
I think what you've just gone out of your way to prove is that by their nature, laws are pretty blunt instruments because they have to be written so broadly ... so the law as written may or may not be a very effective tool when you get down to a specific case, and it may spit out a result that's completely unacceptable to a lot of people. That's become particularly true of late, with judges and lawyers becoming more and more constrained by regulations that attempt to legislate human judgment out of the picture. It may not even be the law itself that's the problem, but our methods of applying the law, but either way, it only makes the justice system seem like more of a random roll of the dice.

I don't see anything wrong with being unhappy about that, and when you get down to it, that's the fundamental issue that most people seem to be upset about here. Taking the attitude of "oh well, the law is the law and it's there for a reason" doesn't make the law any more effective, or really do anything except sound like you are oblivious to a problem or don't care.
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:36 AM   #65
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

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"While the criminal justice system has determined the legal consequences of this incident, it is my responsibility as NFL Commissioner to determine appropriate league discipline for your actions, which have caused irreparable harm to the victim and his family, your club, your fellow players and the NFL."
What I get from that is.... since a life was lost, he was forced to take appropriate action... while everyone else, and certain teams, are treated with a slap on the wrist. Goodell sucks.
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:14 PM   #66
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

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I think what you've just gone out of your way to prove is that by their nature, laws are pretty blunt instruments because they have to be written so broadly ... so the law as written may or may not be a very effective tool when you get down to a specific case, and it may spit out a result that's completely unacceptable to a lot of people. That's become particularly true of late, with judges and lawyers becoming more and more constrained by regulations that attempt to legislate human judgment out of the picture. It may not even be the law itself that's the problem, but our methods of applying the law, but either way, it only makes the justice system seem like more of a random roll of the dice.

I don't see anything wrong with being unhappy about that, and when you get down to it, that's the fundamental issue that most people seem to be upset about here. Taking the attitude of "oh well, the law is the law and it's there for a reason" doesn't make the law any more effective, or really do anything except sound like you are oblivious to a problem or don't care.
I said the law is the law unless you want to change it. We absolutely have the vehicle to change it. You just have to decide if you are upset enough only to post on a message board or to actually do something about it. It's sort of like Bush v Gore; remember how insanely upset people were that GWB won the electoral college but lost the popular vote? I'm sure there are some people that will still ignorantly say he lost the election and shouldn't be President. I predicted then of all the people upset with the way the system works, no one would try to change it. Same thing here. The system works for the vast majority of people. There will always be excpetions to ever rule, every system. There will always be every systems "Patriots."
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:52 AM   #67
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

From what I have read, it is difficult to determine that Stallworth's actions alone resulted in the the mans death. It appears that the victim somehow darted across the street and while alcohol might have impaired his reaction time, its not clear that if he was cold sober........that the outcome would have been different.

That is why it appears they took the plea bargain. While it looks pretty much like 30 days for a human life and 18month for a dog's life.......it apparantly isnt that black and white.

While I personally think Vick got more than was warranted, he did break federal laws and paid the price. Stallworth used bad judgement in driving while over the legal limit, but its unclear that his level of intoxication caused the accident. IMO, Leonard Little's incident was much worse than Stallworth's.
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:39 PM   #68
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

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From what I have read, it is difficult to determine that Stallworth's actions alone resulted in the the mans death. It appears that the victim somehow darted across the street and while alcohol might have impaired his reaction time, its not clear that if he was cold sober........that the outcome would have been different.

That is why it appears they took the plea bargain. While it looks pretty much like 30 days for a human life and 18month for a dog's life.......it apparantly isnt that black and white.

While I personally think Vick got more than was warranted, he did break federal laws and paid the price. Stallworth used bad judgement in driving while over the legal limit, but its unclear that his level of intoxication caused the accident. IMO, Leonard Little's incident was much worse than Stallworth's.
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:51 AM   #69
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

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I said the law is the law unless you want to change it. We absolutely have the vehicle to change it. You just have to decide if you are upset enough only to post on a message board or to actually do something about it. It's sort of like Bush v Gore; remember how insanely upset people were that GWB won the electoral college but lost the popular vote? I'm sure there are some people that will still ignorantly say he lost the election and shouldn't be President. I predicted then of all the people upset with the way the system works, no one would try to change it. Same thing here. The system works for the vast majority of people. There will always be excpetions to ever rule, every system. There will always be every systems "Patriots."
Well, that's the core of the issue right there. It's a question of access to "The System," and for the average person, there really isn't much of that unless you dedicate your entire life to changing the law.

Let's say I wanted to change the law in California so Stallworth would've gotten more time in jail. Where would I start? I could write a letter to my congressman, and it would be ignored. I could write to my state legislator, and it would be ignored. I could write a letter to the editor, maybe they'll publish it, but even then, nothing comes of it. At any point along the way on those paths, there's a "gatekeeper" who's more likely than not to dismiss you as a crazy person for having such an intense interest in a subject.

So there go the easy options ... what else? I could try to get a ballot measure passed -- but wait, this state is so big and unmanageable that you need more than a million signatures to do that. So good luck unless I'm already heavily involved and connected in politics. I guess I could run for office, or hire a lawyer and file a lawsuit. Those could conceivably work.

Problem is, with any of those, you're right back to dedicating your whole life to it, and that's not something most people can afford to do. That's why I really do believe there's become a disconnect in our system of "representation," and it's discouraging enough that common people mostly won't take more than a passing interest in it. So if it doesn't affect you or your family directly ... well, then yeah, mostly you don't have the time or energy to do more than register your complaint in a general sense. Multiply that by 50 issues you're unhappy with and could potentially be fighting for, and it looks even more pointless. That's why you find me here on the message board instead out on the street marching and breaking bottles or whatever it is you supposed I should be doing.

Sorry, man. Your theory works well on paper, but it's pretty hopeless down here at ground level.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:18 AM   #70
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Default Re: Dante Stallworth gets THIRTY days in prison.

I heard of a case where somebody was behind the wheel of a car and over the legal limit. They were hit while stopped at a light and the person that hit them ended up being injured.

Just being behind the wheel and over the legal limit does not make you guilty.

"No matter how thin you slice it...there are always 2 sides".
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