New Lies for Old

[7SteelGal43]

Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets

oh i agree considering by the time some of reach retirement age ,the only thing in that social security box will be nothing but IOU's. we won't see a penny of the money they've been taking from us thanks to the idiots we elect. ... isn't it ironic how the government makes laws to govern the citizens, but yet its the citizens who should be making laws to govern the government. we steal from them we pay a penalty...they steal from us and they're not held accountable....
but here's the thing...if every citizen was givin a million dollars say at age 21 ,and STRONGLY advised to make arrangements with a portion of the money for thier retirement years, be it by saving or investing. i bet a large percentage of the people would be flat ass broke without a penny of that million before they hit 50, and the taxpayers would end up supporting them anyway in thier golden years.

So in other words, to quote myself from a previous post "THE GOVERNMENT NEVER SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN INVOLVED IN PEOPLES RETIREMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE ?!!"

I don't claim to be the greatest source of knowledge on the human mind, but perhaps if we weren't sittin back thinking that social security is our retirment plan, and if instead of making that social security payment to the federal govt we had a bigger paycheck, more people would take on the responsibility of planning for their own future. Would everyone ? No, probably not. But is it the governments job ? HELL NO !

[SteelTalons]

Originally Posted by tony hipchest

we really need a political right wing extremist propoganda forum.

i once wondered what it would be like if 5 or 6 ravenfans constantly went to the "nfl forum" and posted hundereds of "pro ravens/steelers suck" articles.

then i went to the "locker room" and found out.



"fdr is da debil...."

I know right.

[tony hipchest]

"bu..bu...bu... eff... dee... aaarrrrrrrr....."

i blame the pilgrims for even bringing us to this godforsaken place.

in fact, i blame columbus, not only for discovering the evil america but the bengals suck.

[fansince'76]

Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets

or better yet, seahawk and cardinal fans whining about the refs ....the standard rebuttle would be...you lost ,get over it whiners... ...but..but his birth certificate...

You mean kinda like 8 solid years of bitching, pissing and moaning about "stolen" elections?

What's good for the goose....

[HometownGal]

Originally Posted by fansince'76

You mean kinda like 8 solid years of bitching, pissing and moaning about "stolen" elections?

What's good for the goose....

Darned tootin'.

bu...bu...bu....hypocrisy.

[revefsreleets]

FDR did some things that ultimately caused harm. But the situation in this country in the 30's was BAD, way worse than anyone here will ever comprehend. Calling him evil is just WAY over the top...I also take umbrage with ANY article which resorts to name calling and lacing a few facts in amongst flat out hate filled rhetoric. I don't like it when the likes of Maureen Dowd do it, and I don't care for it here.

Now back to "Evil doer" FDR...here are some facts and figures for the more moderate:

He literally helped save the US economy through reform and agricultural and business recovery packages, some of which led the US to the greatest economic expansion (arguably) in the history of the World post WWII. Did he use the government to do so? Absolutely...but it was also absolutely necessary...Things like the CCC and the WPA were essential to economic recovery, and actually are examples of the very BEST that can happen when the government steps in to help ailing private business.

He was also instrumental in encouraging private business to establish pensions for workers, a near extinct act now, but a good one that I wish would be resurrected.

Also, something the extreme right windgers usually ignore is that by 1937 there were a lot of signs of recovery and FDR set out to CUT Federal spending, something his latter day fellow Democrats would never be willing to do. That never came about because of another economic downturn, but it shows a clear flexibility i thinking on his part.

I'm not even going to mention WWII. Some mistakes were made, but obviously the outcome was favorable...hardly the work of "the embodiment of evil".

The problem with blaming the initiator of acts that become permanent or entrenched is that the initial acts were usually necessary. Look at Welfare. Clinton reformed it and made it look much more like what it was supposed to be (temporary relief), something like relief plans that date back to the Roman Empire. Obama rolled that reform back, though. ANY government plan can be abused and misused...

One last word on FDR. He issued his "Four F's" (freedoms) in 1941 for what he envisioned a post-war US to be like. I think any John Bircher would be satisfied and pleased: freedom of speech and expression, freedom of worship, freedom from want, and freedom from fear.

[Godfather]

Originally Posted by revefsreleets

The problem with blaming the initiator of acts that become permanent or entrenched is that the initial acts were usually necessary. Look at Welfare. Clinton reformed it and made it look much more like what it was supposed to be (temporary relief), something like relief plans that date back to the Roman Empire. Obama rolled that reform back, though. ANY government plan can be abused and misused...

Well stated. The War on Poverty could fall into the same category. Poor people today are far better off than they were 40-50 years ago, but those programs should have had an expiration date. You have to change your playbook from time to time.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by revefsreleets

FDR did some things that ultimately caused harm.

Rev, you make your points well, and I respect your point of view.

FDR was revered by many as the man that ended the depression and substantially led us through arguably our greatest test as a nation, WWII. That is one perspective and I understand why folks see it that way. As I said in another post, I am from a family and married into one that are quite polarized on FDR.

My perspective descends from personal experience and a lot of research that resulted from that experience.

I had occasion to work at facility that shall remain nameless outside of Frankfurt West Germany during the first Nixon administration. That facility was formerly one of IG Farben's largest chemical plants, and to this day remains one of the largest chemical development and production facilities in the world. My recollection is that it is several miles by several miles in dimension and the River Main flows through it.

I lived in the village to the West of the complex, a completely rebuilt little burg because it was totally destroyed in the war. The town of Hoechst is to the East. It too was destroyed and rebuilt. The complex wasn't touched, except that a bridge that crossed the Main was hit by a lone fighter returning from a mission and he hit a "target of opportunity". I'm certain he got reamed out for that.

IG Farben in and of itself is a fascinating story that I'm not going to go into here. Suffice to say, it was absolutely pivotal to the nazi war effort and munitions manufacturing. In fact, IGF were the folks that gave us Zyklon B, the stuff they gassed people with in the "camps" (another story). I worked in this complex and saw what I saw.

So while the Eighth Air Force was reducing the rest of Germany to rubble, IGF was happily producing all manner of stuff that was killing our folks and the rest of Europe. ONE STINKING BOMB touched the complex in the entirety of the war. And it isn't like you'd miss it as you flew over it, it is freekin enormous. One might ask "why?".

I'll leave you to your own research and conclusions. I've done mine over the last 30+ years. I will point out that Wall Street financed hitler, as they had done the bolsheviks. There are numerous tomes "out there", but I'll make it easy here. These are on line - http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-bolshevik-rev.html http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-hitler.html http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-fdr.html In these you will see that Wall Street are a bunch of socialists that financed emerging socialist regimes. You will also see that FDR was in the center of it.

If your interests are piqued by IGF, you might stray into the relationships between other US firms and "the bad guys", like that between IBM and the SS. Yeah, you know those Germans and their fanaticism for accuracy.. If you're going to exterminate a lot of folks, you need to keep accurate records, and who better to retain than IBM. Oh, and back to IGF, I walked past the barracks that "housed" the human test subjects on the way to my office every day. They now "house" beagles for similar purposes.

As to why IBM would supply kraut death camps with the means to account, or why ITT would equip U-boats with their sites, or why the massive SS weapons research and development facility that surrounded Auschwitz wasn't touched is never touched by "the media" is consistent with the rest of their "reportage". Morrow and Cronkite were probably distracted by all the carnage on German cities.

I could go on about all the other accomplishments of the FDR "administration", but I'll leave it there. The buck stops at the desk of FDR. I stand by my statement.

[revefsreleets]

I am well aware of the links between Farben and the US. The World was not AS controlled by international conglomerates then as it is now, but there was still a lot of "conflict of interest". Ford and Sears and a bunch of other US companies were entangled with the Nazi's and vice versa. HOWEVER, much of this is apocryphal at best, conspiratorial at worst. Too much to get into here, but I do have some mitigating facts.

The Farben factory was "largely left intact" but was also inhabited by countless Frankfurt residents left homeless due to the bombing. There are rumors that Eisenhower wanted it left intact because he intended to use it as his HQ post-war, and, in fact, there was a LOT of US activity in that building after the war, including the CIA using it. However it's much more likely that the allies didn't bomb it because of it's relative proximity to the Gruneburgpark refugee camp.

I've heard and read a lot of wild conspiracy theories about FDR over the years, and I mostly attribute that to his high stature amongst US presidents..."the nail that sticks up gets pounded" kind of thing. He was recently voted by historians the third best president in US history behind Washington and Lincoln, and that kind of notoriety is Certain to attract the wrong kind of attention. The (D) behind his name paints a target on his chest, and we've all seen what "historians" with an agenda can do with a revisionist brush (see: Trying to say the holocaust never occurred).

For the most part, after researching this myself with NO personal agenda, I see a little smoke and no fire at all. FDR was no satanic cabalistic demagogue, just a US President with a difficult job who made some mistakes but mostly got it right during one of the most dangerous periods in US history.

[7SteelGal43]

Originally Posted by revefsreleets

The problem with blaming the initiator of acts that become permanent or entrenched is that the initial acts were usually necessary. Look at Welfare. Clinton reformed it and made it look much more like what it was supposed to be (temporary relief), something like relief plans that date back to the Roman Empire. Obama rolled that reform back, though. ANY government plan can be abused and misused...

Clinton did not reform welfare.....he merely signed the reform that a Republican congress sent him. BOO-YA