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Old 09-23-2009, 11:44 AM   #21
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Default Re: Miami's Wildcat Formation

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
I dont know. If you have OT's in the prime of their career like Jon Ogden, Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, Jordan Gross........those guys market is pretty close to $10mil a season.

I agree that Rookie salaries should be slotted and capped like the NBA, but I disagree that only the QB, RB, WR's deserve $10mil a season sentiment.
That's where we disagree. Yes, market value for a top OL is that high, but I still think it's a mistake to put 10 percent of your salary cap toward any one player unless he's capable of singlehandedly winning a game for you, or at least capable of dominating for a series or two at a time and changing the makeup of the game.

That means QBs, RBs, a few (very few) WRs, and certain pass rushers. OLs and DBs don't really fit that category because they're only as effective as the guy next to them, and you can't pay the entire unit premium money. I really think, given the limitations of the cap, you're better off trying to pay decent money to 4-5 decent starters at OL and DB than you are by breaking the bank for one superstar and potentially leaving a hole somewhere. Like you said, finding capable young guys through the draft or cheap reliable veterans is always a help ... when you can find them.

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Miami invested big money in Jake Long and Vernon Carey. They brought in Porter in free agency and I think are paying Ronnie Brown OK money too. Then Parcells drafts Langford, Merling, vontae Davis and Sean Smith. Its kind of like the Steelers in you pay the cornerstone vets and draft young talent to play cheaper.
The Dolphins are actually very, very lucky in one respect: They got a temporary pass with the salary cap because they were able to find a quality QB at a bargain-basement price due to injury concerns. Pennington is making less than $4 million a year, and probably would've commanded at least double that if they'd known he could play at a high level for sure. Ronnie Brown's also still under his rookie contract, which is paying him $3 million and change -- not cheap, but below market for a good RB. If not for that, they would've had to make a tough cut somewhere else, and this offseason, they'll probably have to. Not a good sign for a team that needs to strengthen a few positions on defense. Hope they draft well, and cheaply.
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Old 09-23-2009, 01:06 PM   #22
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Default Re: Miami's Wildcat Formation

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OLs and DBs don't really fit that category because they're only as effective as the guy next to them, and you can't pay the entire unit premium money.
.
In the case of a CB...there is no guy next to him. Also the same as the LT who effectively plays on the "island" against the best pass rushers in the NFL.

If you look at the really solid teams in the NFL, it all starts up front on the O-line and D-line. Offensively you need a very good LT to protect your QB and a good OG to help in the run game. The other 3 guys can be serviceable.

An O line can make an average RB look good. Otherwise how do you explain Willie Parker getting all those yards? Likewise a good pass rushing D-line can make a secondary look good.

IMO, the most overrated position in the NFL is WR, the next is RB. The league is filled with WR's who can run and catch if only the QB is good enough and has the time to get them the football. Antwaan Randle El didnt suddenly suck.....he just went to a place with a bad QB, so too with Az Hakim, Wes Welker, Mike Furrey, Deion Branch who all benefitted from a good QB and looked brutal without one.
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Old 09-23-2009, 01:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: Miami's Wildcat Formation

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In the case of a CB...there is no guy next to him. Also the same as the LT who effectively plays on the "island" against the best pass rushers in the NFL.
OK, there's not technically anyone "next" to a CB, but the point is, if you have the best corner in the league on one side, but the corner on the other side is an easy target, or if one of the safeties is always getting fooled, then your pass defense is going to be shitty. The Raiders are (or at least were, this year is still TBD) a perfect example of this. You need all four guys to be at least decent.

Same with the OL. Ogden might be a brick wall at LT, but if the guys on the right side are always getting bum rushed, that's no good. I know LT-RDE is usually the marquee matchup, but if you lose any one of the 4-5 battles, the line isn't doing its job. USUALLY, it seems like that's not an issue, because teams that spend big money on a LT tend to bring in premium players elsewhere on the line too -- they just have problems at other positions.

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If you look at the really solid teams in the NFL, it all starts up front on the O-line and D-line. Offensively you need a very good LT to protect your QB and a good OG to help in the run game. The other 3 guys can be serviceable.

An O line can make an average RB look good. Otherwise how do you explain Willie Parker getting all those yards? Likewise a good pass rushing D-line can make a secondary look good.
True enough. You're not necessarily wrong; I just happen to be of the opinion that true balance is the better option for those positions. it's definitely possible to make it work either of those ways.

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IMO, the most overrated position in the NFL is WR, the next is RB. The league is filled with WR's who can run and catch if only the QB is good enough and has the time to get them the football. Antwaan Randle El didnt suddenly suck.....he just went to a place with a bad QB, so too with Az Hakim, Wes Welker, Mike Furrey, Deion Branch who all benefitted from a good QB and looked brutal without one.
I am 100% behind you on that one. Competent WRs are a dime a dozen; the Bears are the only ones who can't seem to figure that out. Same with decent running backs; only the Steelers don't know how to find one.

But there are a few -- and only a few -- RBs and WRs that are actually at the talent level where they can be game-changers independently. Moss, Fitzgerald, maybe a guy like Burress or Owens or Steve Smith, and that's about all the names that belong on that list. I don't know if there are currently any RBs at that level, but past examples would've been Bettis, LT, Roger Craig ... guys like that. All probably HOFers and by far the best at their position. Otherwise, I agree with you, those positions aren't worth that kind of money either, and $10 million for a rookie receiver or RB is just as bad.
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: Miami's Wildcat Formation

Reserve. Basically I think you are saying that you build thru the draft with good young inexpensive talent instead of paying too much for it like Dan Snyder.

Your devaluing of guys in the trenches but willingness to overpay "skill players" is classic Raiders mentality. It sells tickets, but doesnt win championships.

Fans know that QB's, WR's and RB's win them weeks in their fantasy pools. NFL GM's and coaches know that Linemen win them games and get to the playoffs.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: Miami's Wildcat Formation

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Reserve. Basically I think you are saying that you build thru the draft with good young inexpensive talent instead of paying too much for it like Dan Snyder.
Yes. The difference is, when the draft slotting FORCES you to overpay for someone like Dan Snyder, pretty much the only way to get your money's worth is hope you find a star at an immediate "impact" position. Unfortunately, with a top-five pick and the salaries they command, MOST things you can do are the wrong move. Unless you get a star QB or the "next Barry Sanders" that everyone is always talking about (but never seems to materialize), you come out in the red. Taking an OL #1, to me, just looks like being resigned to the fact that you'll overpay a guy instead of gambling and maybe losing big.

Yes, the line is where it starts, but "building" a line with $10 million rookies is not the way I would do it. That doesn't mean I want to underpay all linemen everywhere, and it doesn't mean I think the line is unimportant, it means I think THAT is the wrong move.

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Your devaluing of guys in the trenches but willingness to overpay "skill players" is classic Raiders mentality. It sells tickets, but doesnt win championships.

Fans know that QB's, WR's and RB's win them weeks in their fantasy pools. NFL GM's and coaches know that Linemen win them games and get to the playoffs.
OK, you're talking about two different things there. Al Davis' problem isn't that he overpays skill players -- it's that he overpays indiscriminately, and that he overpays A LOT more skill players than you should. There ARE a handful of skill players worth $10 million, but you can't have five of them at once, and you'd better make sure that if you're paying a fortune, you have Ben Roethlisberger instead of DeAngelo Hall or Darius Heyward-Bey. Because that's going to create cap problems just as sure as a $10 million unproven lineman.

The second point? Come on. That's almost insulting. Not overpaying an offensive lineman doesn't mean I think you SHOULD overpay everyone else. Truth is, there are very few players who are worth 10 percent of your salary cap, period. Most of them are quarterbacks. I also think it's entirely possible to put together a good offensive line where your best guys are making $5 million and $6 million, not $9 million and $10 million. Just like it's possible to put together an outstanding defensive backfield or an outstanding defensive line that way (which is exactly what the Steelers have done, in case you didn't notice).

Anyway ... this is more of a side point, but thought it would be interesting to look at what HAS happened to most of the teams that have drafted offensive linemen top-five in the salary cap era as we know it. Have those linemen sparked a lot of success? A handul of teams -- the Rams in 1997, the Dolphins last year, the 2007 Cardinals -- had success ... but notice something? All of them also just happened to pick up a Pro Bowl QB for next to nothing (twice, it was Kurt Warner). The other teams? Well, it didn't really seem to help them or hurt them.

1997 Rams -- Orlando Pace
2000 Redskins -- Chris Samuels
2001 Cardinals -- Leonard Davis
2002 Bills -- Mike Williams
2004 Raiders -- Robert Gallery (there you go Al, overpaying skill players but not the line again)
2006 Jets -- D'Brickashaw Ferguson
2007 Browns -- Joe Thomas
2007 Cardinals -- Levi Brown
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Old 09-27-2009, 06:21 PM   #26
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Default Re: Miami's Wildcat Formation

the way miami ran the wildcat vs my chargers today, i don't know why they didn't just do it every play
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