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Old 03-30-2010, 07:51 PM   #11
MACH1
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

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Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
What...you don't think the government printing it's own money instead of buying it with an interest rate wouldn't do anything to help the budget crisis? IMO, you gotta start where the root problem lies.

Use your words not emoticons lol.
Do your homework first. If you want to see what happens look at Zimbabwe. Inflation rate is at only 11.2 million percent. You read it right, that's million.


This is from 2008
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS...ion/index.html

This explains it better, as you see what happens when you go on a money printing spree and then, get this, declaring inflation illegal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe

How's that for words.

Of course that's a worst case scenario, but that's what happens.
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Old 03-30-2010, 08:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

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Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
I read that drivel....I'm trying to cut to the chase. Thanks to you and the bus driver, though, we are right back where we left off.

Thanks for that....

As for the "look at me", that's REAL cute....I haven't posted in a month, but, yeah, I'm all about "look at me".

Idiot.

Well, eff this thread....it's been hijacked by retards. Might as well delete it, mods, or dump it in with the rest of the retardation in the other hijacked threads that were spun WAY off topic.
First day back and your ready for another ban already. You have what, 3 posts and 2 have personal attacks. Not to bright are ya.
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Old 03-30-2010, 08:35 PM   #13
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

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Umm printing more money is only going to cause inflation, and we are already at a risk for that now. The more money that is printed the less it's worth.
Ummmm, yeah...obviously you have no clue where I'm coming from.

See, there's this little clause in the constitution that says the government has the right to print its own money.
"To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures"
Article One, Section 8 Powers of Congress

But see, since 1913 (when the Federal Reserve Act was passed), the government has been buying money from the Federal Reserve and paying it back with interest added. Much of the money that us citizens pay in federal taxes to the IRS goes to pay off that interest. Therefore, if the government was doing what it is able to do (print its own money instead of buying it), there would be more money available to spend on things like...I don't know, health care and keeping a balanced budget. As of right now, the Federal Reserve and government accounts totals about 41% of national debt. If that isn't a red flag...I don't know what is.

For example...In 1913, when the Federal Reserve was created with the duty of preserving the dollar, one 20-dollar bill could buy one 20-dollar gold piece. Today, fifty 20-dollar bills are needed to buy one 20-dollar gold piece. Under the Fed's custody, the U.S. dollar has lost 98 percent of its value. The dollar is the storehouse of our wealth. Has the Fed faithfully safeguarded that storehouse?


Thanks for the attempted simple economics lesson though. I'm well aware of the fact that just printing up more money only lessens the value of a dollar.

Last edited by SteelCityMom; 03-30-2010 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 03-30-2010, 08:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

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Originally Posted by MACH1 View Post
Do your homework first. If you want to see what happens look at Zimbabwe. Inflation rate is at only 11.2 million percent. You read it right, that's million.


This is from 2008
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS...ion/index.html

This explains it better, as you see what happens when you go on a money printing spree and then, get this, declaring inflation illegal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe

How's that for words.

Of course that's a worst case scenario, but that's what happens.

That's great for words. Too bad they have nothing to do with what I was talking about.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

And apologies for furthering the hijacking of the thread...my belief though is that if there was no federal reserve and the government controlled the printing and value of money, we probably wouldn't be having any discussions on the climbing of the national debt to 12 trillion dollars and wondering where the money for health care would come from.

The article is spot on, the government doesn't have the kind of money to make this a feasible venture, and it never will until the root problem is dealt with IMO.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:04 PM   #16
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
Ummmm, yeah...obviously you have no clue where I'm coming from.

See, there's this little clause in the constitution that says the government has the right to print its own money.
"To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures"
Article One, Section 8 Powers of Congress

But see, since 1913 (when the Federal Reserve Act was passed), the government has been buying money from the Federal Reserve and paying it back with interest added. Much of the money that us citizens pay in federal taxes to the IRS goes to pay off that interest. Therefore, if the government was doing what it is able to do (print its own money instead of buying it), there would be more money available to spend on things like...I don't know, health care and keeping a balanced budget. As of right now, the Federal Reserve and government accounts totals about 41% of national debt. If that isn't a red flag...I don't know what is.

For example...In 1913, when the Federal Reserve was created with the duty of preserving the dollar, one 20-dollar bill could buy one 20-dollar gold piece. Today, fifty 20-dollar bills are needed to buy one 20-dollar gold piece. Under the Fed's custody, the U.S. dollar has lost 98 percent of its value. The dollar is the storehouse of our wealth. Has the Fed faithfully safeguarded that storehouse?


Thanks for the attempted simple economics lesson though. I'm well aware of the fact that just printing up more money only lessens the value of a dollar.
All this does is take money out of the right pocket and moves it to the left pocket. Still doesn't 'fix' anything.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

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All this does is take money out of the right pocket and moves it to the left pocket. Still doesn't 'fix' anything.
Not over night...but do you not understand that the government is in the kind of debt that you or I are with credit card companies, when they don't HAVE to be? They have the constitutional power to print and regulate money and pay no one back (with high interest rates) for it....and they don't! WE pay the interest on something that is outright unconstitutional, and we shouldn't even have to. Of course it wouldn't fix itself immediately, but that doesn't mean we should be ok with the furthering of the basic problem.

I mean, if you're ok with it, that's your choice. Fact of the matter though is that the US dollar didn't start losing value until the Federal Reserve was put in place and the national debt didn't start skyrocketing until after 1913 either. I don't know how to explain it any clearer than that.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

The spending has to stop, I agree.

But the $$$ has to come from some where and printing more isn't going to solve anything. It has to be backed with something like Gold, you know the stuff that the fed reserve has. And not paying your debt is bad business, next time you get in a bad situation who's going to borrow you money if you don't pay your debts in the first place. And yes we're paying interest, figure out how much is owed and how much is interest being paid. At the current rate it is unsustainable.

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Old 03-30-2010, 09:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

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Originally Posted by MACH1 View Post
The spending has to stop, I agree.

But the $$$ has to come from some where and printing more isn't going to solve anything. It has to be backed with something like Gold, you know the stuff that the fed reserve has. And not paying your debt is bad business, next time you get in a bad situation who's going to borrow you money if you don't pay your debts in the first place. And yes we're paying interest, figure out how much is owed and how much is interest being paid. At the current rate it is unsustainable.

The Federal Reserve only has the gold because the government handed it over willingly...and then started charging the American people to borrow on it by creating the first permanent income tax. Quite the messed up situation.

And I do know that just printing more isn't going to work. If anything they should be printing less right now. And of course you have to pay your debts, but the Congress paying the Federal Reserve to print money is like me paying you more than the cost of toilet paper (and still buying the toilet paper) to wipe my ass for me...if you get my meaning. (disclaimer: I DO NOT want Mach1 to wipe my ass!)

And honestly...I'm pretty sure that Congress could basically give the middle finger to the Federal Reserve (and its bankers) by having the Federal Reserve Act repealed. What are they gonna do...sue for trillions of dollars? I'm sure that would go real well.

All I know is though is that the present system is a failure. It (the Revenue Act) was an emergency measure, adopted under the pressure of war necessity and not to be counted upon as a permanent part of our revenue structure. The high rates put pressure on taxpayers to reduce their taxable income, tend to destroy individual initiative and enterprise, and seriously impede the development of productive business.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:52 PM   #20
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Default Re: Question: How Will We Pay for Healthcare?

SCM,
Actually, the Federal government *doesn't* have the power (never a right) to print money. It has the power to coin money and regulate it's value. Crucial difference in the wording.
A dollar bill is merely a bill of credit; something expressly forbidden to the States due to the problems it causes (which we're seeing today).
Coining money means literally that; stamping and regulating coins. "Money" has intrinsic value, whereas a bill is merely a piece of paper.

Scope the antifederalist papers #44 to see the concern
Quote:
11. Though I believe it is not generally so understood, yet certain it is, that Congress may emit paper money, and even make it a legal tender throughout the United States; and, what is still worse, may, after it shall have depreciated in the hands of the people, call it in by taxes, at any rate of depreciation (compared with gold and silver) which they may think proper. For though no state can emit bills of credit, or pass any law impairing the obligation of contracts, yet the Congress themselves are under no constitutional restraints on these points.
And the Federalist response #44
Quote:
The extension of the prohibition to bills of credit must give pleasure to every citizen, in proportion to his love of justice and his knowledge of the true springs of public prosperity. The loss which America has sustained since the peace, from the pestilent effects of paper money on the necessary confidence between man and man, on the necessary confidence in the public councils, on the industry and morals of the people, and on the character of republican government, constitutes an enormous debt against the States chargeable with this unadvised measure, which must long remain unsatisfied; or rather an accumulation of guilt, which can be expiated no otherwise than by a voluntary sacrifice on the altar of justice, of the power which has been the instrument of it. In addition to these persuasive considerations, it may be observed, that the same reasons which show the necessity of denying to the States the power of regulating coin, prove with equal force that they ought not to be at liberty to substitute a paper medium in the place of coin. Had every State a right to regulate the value of its coin, there might be as many different currencies as States, and thus the intercourse among them would be impeded; retrospective alterations in its value might be made, and thus the citizens of other States be injured, and animosities be kindled among the States themselves. The subjects of foreign powers might suffer from the same cause, and hence the Union be discredited and embroiled by the indiscretion of a single member. No one of these mischiefs is less incident to a power in the States to emit paper money, than to coin gold or silver. The power to make any thing but gold and silver a tender in payment of debts, is withdrawn from the States, on the same principle with that of issuing a paper currency.
As you can see, both sides were agreed on this point.
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