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Old 05-19-2010, 04:20 PM   #121
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Default Re: Lebron James Amazing

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Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
As I said, I DID acknowledge that I was wrong in re Norman. However, the sentiment is still the same about champions without championships...

I don't believe that an NBA MVP who has clearly stated that a title is his ultimate dream "quit". It defies logic.
Rev - I know very little about basketball. You guys can continue this discussion about Labron. ( I know next to nothing about basketball so I am out)

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Old 05-19-2010, 05:21 PM   #122
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Default Re: Lebron James Amazing

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Originally Posted by Nadroj 20 View Post
If you can not see that LeBron James will go down as one of the best athletes in history that's really sad to be missing the obvious, REGARDLESS of titles
make no mistake about it... i think lebon-bon is one of the most atheletic players in the nba today. the problem with revs is trying to pass off subjective opinion off as indisputable fact in the most homeristic fashion, even in the face of logic.

i would say labron and michael jordan are kinda the NBA equivalent of walter payton and jerry rice (never mind that 1 of the 4 cant win a champ). there are some that say jerry rice was the best pure football player ever. him and walter are unparalleled in their work ethic. neither could hold these titles if they didnt win a championship.

theres a difference between beeing a great athelete and a great player. in order to be a great player, you must win. the purpose to play a game is to win. the criteria is set by its own definition.

i believe it is in the ghetto of queensbridge where they have the streetball leagues that are said to have ballers whos skills and atheletisizm rivals many NBA players.

but you know what? they suck as nba players because they are unable to compete and win on that level.

anyways my OPINION of lebron doesnt count. i bet kobe could beat him in the boston marathon. i think d. howard could beat him in lifting weights (maybe kobe can to) jump higher, and beat him in a dunk competition. i bet steve nash would run circles around him on a soccer field. pound for pound, allen iverson may have been the most atheletic nba player we have seen in 20 years. he is probably better at football than labron, too.

some people say tiger woods is the greatest athelete since jordan (i scoff at this and also know it is their winning that helps the perception). can james do what lance armstrong or michael phelps did? could he win a decathalon? could he really dominate 1 sport, while being a star in the other like deion sanders or bo jackson? i bet michael jordan was a better baseball player.

there have been so many great atheletes in history, it is really difficult to even narrow down a list of 20. i would place lebron up there though.

BUT heres the simple answer to revs little internal dilemma-

payton manning, tom brady, joe montana, terry bradshaw could give 2 shits if they ever made that list. not only arent they top 20 atheletes in history, they aren even top 20 atheletes in the history of the nfl. they are considered the best PLAYERS in the game though.

if youre the best player but you never win when it counts, then by definition you are not the best player.

theres more to winning than simply having the required strength, skills, stamina, agility etc. required to be an athelete. those who find that "more" are the best.

sometimes it just takes luck, a healthier mind, intestinal fortitude and heart, or better situation. either way, it is what it is.

we cant redefine "it" for lebron james just to appease whiny homer fans who have nothing else to cling onto.
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Old 05-19-2010, 06:30 PM   #123
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Default Re: Lebron James Amazing

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Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
Why does this not surprise me? I produce a list with 18 names on it, and make ONE mistake, and the haters and detractors and braintrust members fall all over themselves to IGNORE the validity of the spirit of the post and point out the one little effing error.
and herein lies the rub... there was absolutely NO VALIDITY of the spirit of your post. it was the worst case of a strawman argument you have used in several weeks. i thought you were smarter than that. i admit... i was wrong.

it was a complete misrepresentation of an entire group of posters stances and takes.

your obsession has gone so far overboard, that you called out Aussi_Steeler for no reason whatsoever.

the beautiful (and somewhat disgusting) thing is, that when he promtly handed you your ass and set you straight, you had to scurry/slither to erase your post and the self inflicted emarrassement it undoubtedly brought you.

i pity you. you have completely invalidated yourself and anything you post or any take you may have with the repeated diversion, spin, misrepresentation, and smart assed remarks such as these-

Quote:
All losers according to the collective wisdom of the braintrust due to lack of titles.
complete misrepresentation. why you feel the need to have everyone else slob lebrons knob is beyond me (and im a huge lebron fan who is looking to see him in the finals every year.)

nobody takes you seriously anymore (which you desperately need for validation). i am the complete opposite. i dont want (nor expect) anyone to take me seriously. i post here for entertainment and hopefully make people laugh (even at the expense of you).

what is truly sad, is how much like LITP you have become. there were times he could have a 100% spot on, intelligent, post yet everyone would dismiss it, simply for whom it was coming from.

this thread is a perfect example of that. you actually believe that your post and list had validity. LBJ is your tom brady. through alot of hard work you have morphed into that in which you hated. the transformation has happened so slowly, you are not even self cognizant.

carry on, NM.
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:40 PM   #124
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Default Re: Lebron James Amazing

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
make no mistake about it... i think lebon-bon is one of the most atheletic players in the nba today. the problem with revs is trying to pass off subjective opinion off as indisputable fact in the most homeristic fashion, even in the face of logic.

i would say labron and michael jordan are kinda the NBA equivalent of walter payton and jerry rice (never mind that 1 of the 4 cant win a champ). there are some that say jerry rice was the best pure football player ever. him and walter are unparalleled in their work ethic. neither could hold these titles if they didnt win a championship.

theres a difference between beeing a great athelete and a great player. in order to be a great player, you must win. the purpose to play a game is to win. the criteria is set by its own definition.

i believe it is in the ghetto of queensbridge where they have the streetball leagues that are said to have ballers whos skills and atheletisizm rivals many NBA players.

but you know what? they suck as nba players because they are unable to compete and win on that level.

anyways my OPINION of lebron doesnt count. i bet kobe could beat him in the boston marathon. i think d. howard could beat him in lifting weights (maybe kobe can to) jump higher, and beat him in a dunk competition. i bet steve nash would run circles around him on a soccer field. pound for pound, allen iverson may have been the most atheletic nba player we have seen in 20 years. he is probably better at football than labron, too.

some people say tiger woods is the greatest athelete since jordan (i scoff at this and also know it is their winning that helps the perception). can james do what lance armstrong or michael phelps did? could he win a decathalon? could he really dominate 1 sport, while being a star in the other like deion sanders or bo jackson? i bet michael jordan was a better baseball player.

there have been so many great atheletes in history, it is really difficult to even narrow down a list of 20. i would place lebron up there though.

BUT heres the simple answer to revs little internal dilemma-

payton manning, tom brady, joe montana, terry bradshaw could give 2 shits if they ever made that list. not only arent they top 20 atheletes in history, they aren even top 20 atheletes in the history of the nfl. they are considered the best PLAYERS in the game though.

if youre the best player but you never win when it counts, then by definition you are not the best player.

theres more to winning than simply having the required strength, skills, stamina, agility etc. required to be an athelete. those who find that "more" are the best.

sometimes it just takes luck, a healthier mind, intestinal fortitude and heart, or better situation. either way, it is what it is.

we cant redefine "it" for lebron james just to appease whiny homer fans who have nothing else to cling onto.
I'll be honest....hell of a post.

I am not a whiny homer even though im not sure if that was directed toward me? But anyway i do get all of your points. I am just one that feels that winning championships is just icing on the cake. Dont know why i feel that way but i do. Maybe because players who cant be labeled as one of the best HAVE titles and some of the greats DONT.

I guess it is just a difference in opinions because i do agree with all of your points but in the end still feel like LeBron still needs to be considered one of the greats.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:03 PM   #125
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Default Re: Lebron James Amazing

LeBron James is a heck of an athlete, but he lacks what players such as Jordan, Magic, Bird and even Kobe have ... a killer instinct, the ability to take over a game when it matters, and the refusal to lose.

When I watch Lebron play, he doesn't remind me of Jordan or Kobe ... he reminds me of Dominique Wilkins. During the 80s and early 90s, Dominique was called the "Human Highlight Film" because he could do what no one else, not even Jordan, could do on the court.

Dominique was an absolute freak on the court. He made plays that Jordan could only dream about. He put up great stats and won individual accolades. But he never won a championship. The Atlanta Hawks teams with Dominique were every bit as good as the Bulls teams with Jordan. But unlike Jordan, Dominique lacked the leadership, the killer instinct, and the ability to make those around him better.

Being a great athlete and having phenomenal talent isn't enough. You need the intangibles that Jordan had, that Kobe has. Without those intangibles, Lebron James isn't Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant ... he's Dominique Wilkins.

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Old 05-19-2010, 09:56 PM   #126
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Default Re: Lebron James Amazing

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Originally Posted by Nadroj 20 View Post

I am not a whiny homer even though im not sure if that was directed toward me? But anyway i do get all of your points. I am just one that feels that winning championships is just icing on the cake. Dont know why i feel that way but i do. Maybe because players who cant be labeled as one of the best HAVE titles and some of the greats DONT.

I guess it is just a difference in opinions because i do agree with all of your points but in the end still feel like LeBron still needs to be considered one of the greats.
nah, you dont strike me as a homer at all. just a normal rational lebron james fan, much like myself.

i just cant sit by and watch my position being repeatedly misconstrued by a fanatic.

being that i really dont have a "team" (other than the sonics) i am able to maintain a certain level of objectivity. i root more for the players and am a huge NBA fan in general.

i am indifferent to the celtics but have always liked garnett, allen and even pierce (i have an old t-wolves garnett jersey and bucks ray allen from their rookie years). i cant stand dallas (especially the cowboys) but i like most of their players and have an ancient jason kidd jersey that i would still wear proudly if it fit.

i wish lebron was going for his third ring so i would have a leg to stand on in making a case for him as the best player today. defending kobe makes me sick. but only a myopic homer would make a case like this to someone who contends that kobe is-

Quote:
Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
The "Champs only" argument is garbage. Barry Sanders never won a thing...neither did Marino. If this was a player the haters liked they'd wear the other shoe comfortably.

But it's all ya got so you gotta run with it.
i mean one really cant hitch their argument to the LeStat James bandwagon and throw out all of kobes stats along with his 6 finals appearances and 4 ring (possibly embarking on yet another).

kobe is the highest scoring laker in history.

jerry west
wilt chamberlain
kareem abdul jabaar
tragic johnson
shaq oneal

even if lescore is the highest scoring cav in history, it really isnt saying much considering the above company.

i might as well say kevin durant is the best player in the nba.
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:05 PM   #127
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Default Re: Lebron James Amazing

I highly doubt any of the above players got dunked on by a high school kid either.
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Old 05-20-2010, 05:25 AM   #128
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If the childish name-calling and ignorant remarks don't cease in this thread, I'm going to lock it down. Enough is enough.
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Old 05-20-2010, 07:59 AM   #129
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So, we're done then. Because I FIRMLY stand behind the contention that even if LBJ ultimately wins zero titles in his time (which is extremely unlikely), he's still going to be a top 5 all-time player, perhaps even mentioned as the greatest someday.

Ted Williams hit lifetime .344. He had 521 home runs. Was a two time MVP. Perhaps the greatest hitter in the history of baseball (and he's in some HEAVY competition here), never won a title.

If that's too apples and oranges, how about Stockton/Malone? Two all-time great b-ball players, zero titles between them. Did they lack killer instinct? Did they lack the ability to make those around them better? What is their excuse for not winning a title?

And the homerism charge is empty rhetoric. Hell, I don't even really care for LBJ as a person, but I'm not going to let personal vendettas and blind ignorance based on hate taint my arguments here. It would be different if there were SEVERAL posters in this thread who basically trail around behind me and dispute practically everything I post. It destroys their credibility.

Finally, addressing this "he quit" nonsense, is anyone charging the Magic with quitting? Howard can't "finish" either? I mean, the Magic were THE hottest team in the NBA, and the Celts have basically handed them their asses AND at home.

Could it possibly be that the Celtics are just on fire right now and are playing THAT good?
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:27 AM   #130
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A long time ago, I got into a debate with three of my friends who were Celtics and Lakers fans. I was arguing that Jordan was better than Magic and Bird. They disagreed. And their argument was based on the fact that Jordan hadn't won a championship.

That same year, Jordan went on to win his first championship. After he won two more, I reminded my friends of the debate and said, "OK, now who do you think is better?" They still said Magic and Bird!!!!

It's all about your perspective and how you determine greatness. There's really no right or wrong answer here ...
 
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