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Old 10-07-2010, 01:34 AM   #31
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddle_Of_Steel View Post
Actually-- that whole 5-page debate about whether Miller is an elite TE or not (he is), was publicly viewable....not an insider thing at all.



If the last 6 years of "good receiving TE game" is not enough for you, I doubt another game will do it. Again, Heath Miller has one of the highest, if not the highest (was the highest last season), catch percentages of any TE in the league. He may only get thrown to a couple times, but no TE has a better chance of coming down with the ball in those limited number of attempts.

For him to post Jermichael Findley-like numbers, would involve taking catches away from our WRs. So which WR do we take 5 to 6 catches away from when we do our best Chargers impersonation? Ward since he is getting old? Wallace, since he is inexperienced? Randle El as punishment for being away?
No...When I said insider thing I meant beyond that from time to time zu and I go back and forth about it but I am just having a good time so it is a little joke between us because he knows I would like to see more from Miller and he thinks Miller is the bees knees. lol It is sort of like the blame Arians thing. I have my own blame Miller thing...just for fun...lol

I thought it was a good debate once we got past the insults and people from different points of view were able to share their honest opinions.

Here is the bottom line that I want from passing TE:
-create mismatches for the defense by being able to outrun LBs and outsize safeties. Seriously, as soon as they put a LB on him, there should be options where he runs deeper and outruns the LB. In the TB game I saw single LBs covering him. Just run deeper...a LB?
-occasionally require double coverage because of excellent ability to catch a jump ball (out-muscle)
-be able to get open (maybe better pass route running or better juking skills)
-be more of a difference maker on 3rd downs (he only caught 8 first down catches on 3rd down last year). If we were doing well and it was just that others were getting the ball I would have no problem but since our 3rd down efficiency sucked, I would have hoped he could have helped. His 1st down catches on 3rd down is not very good for his career. When we say he is not getting thrown to, we don't know if he is not getting open or whether they are choosing not to throw it to him. I would guess the former because why would we choose to suck at 3rd downs.
-be more of a Red Zone target. The same principle above on 3rd down applies to the Red Zone. We sucked so if Heath was really getting open, why wouldn't they pass it. I see some TEs that are jumping to catch over 2 people in the end zone and 1 v 1 means mismatch. The QB can just throw a jump ball.

These are the things I'm looking for and these are things he didn't deliver last year in his best year ever. SC Mom was the most convincing of all the debaters because she pointed out that since last year was his best year, he could potentially improve this year. Maybe he is on an upswing (ignoring the Benless stats). I hope she is right.

I don't know if he can be that guy but I hope so. I'd just be happy if he can come through on 3rd downs and Red Zones. I'd like the broadcaster to say "They better look out for Miller." I want the defenses to be worried. I'd like him to want to be the man...to want to step up and come through for his team...to go to Ben and say "Get it to me. I'll save the day." Is passion bad? I wish I heard a story that although Heath is not very verbal, he really wants the ball and wants to make a big play...I wish. I wish he could have stepped up to batch on that one first down we needed and said "Look for me Charlie." Oh well.

On the catching percentage, we showed that his average catch is 4.9 yards (before YAC) so that helps percentages. If he really is getting open, throw that ball to him on 3rd downs and in the Red Zone and see if he keeps up that 78%. If he can, great for us.

I like the people on the board but you saw my other poll where I asked which player you would be willing to lose for the season. Among the 9 were Miller and Starks and the vast majority chose to lose our starting LT despite the struggles of Scott and Hills to replace him in the Tenn game so there is definitely some man love going on...lol
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Old 10-07-2010, 05:40 AM   #32
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

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Originally Posted by SteelKnight View Post

. When we say he is not getting thrown to, we don't know if he is not getting open or whether they are choosing not to throw it to him.
ward - 95 rec .....6 tds
holmes - 79 rec ....5 tds
miller - 76 rec .......6 tds
249 rec

now how many times was holmes ahead of miller in the option order ? i'm guessing most of the time. how many times was miller helping out in pass blocking instead of being a receiver ? but yet he only had 3 receptions less than holmes and scored just as many tds as the receivers... did you complain that holmes couldn't get open ? or that the receivers sucked in the redzone ?

lets look around a bit and see how other teams are distributing the ball

wayne -100
clark - 100
collie --60
260 rec

witten - 94
austin - 81
williams - 37
212 rec

gates - 79
jackson - 68
floyd - 45
192 rec

white - 85
gonzales - 83
jenkins - 50
218 rec

vernon davis - 78
morgan - 52
crabtree - 48
178 rec

looks to me like the teams that throw a lot to their TE's just neglect one of their starting receivers to do so. would you have been happier if miller caught 95 balls and holmes caught 60 ?
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:52 AM   #33
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

I like Miller.
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:21 PM   #34
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

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Here is the bottom line that I want from passing TE:
-create mismatches for the defense by being able to outrun LBs and outsize safeties. Seriously, as soon as they put a LB on him, there should be options where he runs deeper and outruns the LB. In the TB game I saw single LBs covering him. Just run deeper...a LB?
All he can do is run the route that is prescribed by the play called. When a WR or TE runs a route that is not called for-- it leads to things like interceptions because the receiver/TE is not where he was supposed to be at when the QB says: "One-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-one-thousand...."

Again, with the way our offense is currently configured, Heath has very few deep routes. A TE is NOT supposed to be running 15-30 yard routes downfield-- that is the job of a WR or Antonio Gates in an offensive system that has no major threats at WR...

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Originally Posted by SteelKnight View Post
-occasionally require double coverage because of excellent ability to catch a jump ball (out-muscle)
Again, when was the last time you saw Ben throw a jump-ball to Heath? For whatever reason, Ben prefers to lay his jump balls to the outsides to his #1 or #2 WR.

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Originally Posted by SteelKnight View Post
-be able to get open (maybe better pass route running or better juking skills)
You are joking, right? ON any given play where Heath is not being used as an additional fullback, he is almost always wide open-- but neither Ben, nor Arians believes in using checkdowns.....

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-be more of a difference maker on 3rd downs (he only caught 8 first down catches on 3rd down last year).
This is the only argument of your against Miller that actually has any merit. So, he's not dominant in every single area of responsibility for a TE..... Also, some of this depends on the routes he is asked to run.

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Originally Posted by SteelKnight View Post
When we say he is not getting thrown to, we don't know if he is not getting open or whether they are choosing not to throw it to him.
It is definitely the latter-- watch a Steelers game and you will see. Ben does not use his checkdowns (or on the occaision that he does, it is usually to the RB).

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Originally Posted by SteelKnight View Post
The QB can just throw a jump ball.
Why this preternatual obsession with jump-balls? This isn't basketball....

I like the people on the board but you saw my other poll where I asked which player you would be willing to lose for the season. Among the 9 were Miller and Starks and the vast majority chose to lose our starting LT despite the struggles of Scott and Hills to replace him in the Tenn game so there is definitely some man love going on...lol[/QUOTE]

Hmmm....lets think about that one.....drop an elite TE, or a mediocre, overpaid LT.....
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Old 10-07-2010, 06:57 PM   #35
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

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Al Gore.

He invented football.
yes he invented it to help keep manbearpig away. manbear pig sleeps all spring long thats why we dont play it then.
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:01 AM   #36
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets View Post
ward - 95 rec .....6 tds
holmes - 79 rec ....5 tds
miller - 76 rec .......6 tds
249 rec

now how many times was holmes ahead of miller in the option order ? i'm guessing most of the time. how many times was miller helping out in pass blocking instead of being a receiver ? but yet he only had 3 receptions less than holmes and scored just as many tds as the receivers... did you complain that holmes couldn't get open ? or that the receivers sucked in the redzone ?
I don't care about the rinky dink 4.9 average catches (before YAC).

Clearly looking just at receptions is misleading. Despite the fact that it was Miller's best year ever, he just didn't cut it on 3rd downs and red zones. For his career he is not particularly strong with first downs on 3rd down. Last year he had 8. Santonio had 19. The team was particularly bad on 3rd downs. His Red Zone wasn't THAT bad but could be better. I'll give him credit for having 4 TD with less than 10 yards to score.

His total number of catches is fine of course. I only brought up not throwing because when I mention productivity fans say he was open but they wouldn't throw to him.

If he could get his 1st downs on 3rd down up to 16 (ave. 1 per game) and his TDs with less than 10 yards to score up to 6 (or Red Zone TDs up to 8 ...1 every 2 games), I would be a big fan.

You guys that disagree with me never comment on whether you see my point (for example when I described what I would like to see reception wise from a TE). Let me know. They are not unreasonable requests given the rise of talent at TE this year. By next year the TE rankings will be different. A couple of years ago, there were only like 6-8 good ones. Now, there is a lot of talent out there.
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:38 AM   #37
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

Quote:
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All he can do is run the route that is prescribed by the play called. When a WR or TE runs a route that is not called for-- it leads to things like interceptions because the receiver/TE is not where he was supposed to be at when the QB says: "One-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-one-thousand...."
I understand he can't change the called routes but this goes to the concept that skill sets contribute to roles. If the team noticed that he kept creating mismatches against the LB, they would design options in there that would allow him to take advantage of mismatches or further they might designate him to be the primary target on a play. Why wouldn't teams want to take advantage of mismatches? (If they are there).

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Again, with the way our offense is currently configured, Heath has very few deep routes. A TE is NOT supposed to be running 15-30 yard routes downfield-- that is the job of a WR or Antonio Gates in an offensive system that has no major threats at WR...
That may be because of his running speed and ability to separate skill set. There are plenty of TEs that run medium routes.


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Again, when was the last time you saw Ben throw a jump-ball to Heath? For whatever reason, Ben prefers to lay his jump balls to the outsides to his #1 or #2 WR.
Never. That's just it. For some TE, when they are covered 1 v 1, it is considered open and the QB can just toss it up. Maybe he doesn't have the vertical leaping ability or the box out power to outmuscle a guy for the ball. It's fine but I had to point out that many TEs have this skill. It is helpful.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddle_Of_Steel View Post
You are joking, right? ON any given play where Heath is not being used as an additional fullback, he is almost always wide open-- but neither Ben, nor Arians believes in using checkdowns.....
No. I'm not joking. If he is so good at getting open (and he certainly runs enough pass routs) then they should take advantage of his ability to get open and send him further. I'm tired of hearing about this check down excuse. It is a good point I will admit but if he was so good at getting open, don't you think they would use him as more than that, When you watch other teams, the check down guy changes each play. It might be a RB, TE or WR. It changes. I'm not sure if he can get open as easily as you describe but if he can, they are underutilizing him. Are we going to say that his whole career? If he were more verbal and passionate, he could request more of a role...to want to be the man to come through for his team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddle_Of_Steel View Post
This is the only argument of your against Miller that actually has any merit. So, he's not dominant in every single area of responsibility for a TE..... Also, some of this depends on the routes he is asked to run.
My main complaint with the "don't want to take away passes from our WR" argument is that we were terrible on 3rd downs and in the Red Zones so he wouldn't have been taking anything away from others. If we were good in those areas and the receivers were catching them in those situations, I wouldn't be arguing about ball distribution. What I'm saying is he has a chance to step up in these situations (or show the skill set and drive that would make him a target in these situations).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddle_Of_Steel View Post
Why this preternatual obsession with jump-balls? This isn't basketball....
It just shows the ability to have a mismatch. Speed is one way. Juking and outsmarting with route running is another, yet a third is the ability to outmuscle/ or outjump when a ball is tossed up. It makes D-coordinators nervous and sometimes they send double teams ...which helps everyone else.

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Knight said " I like the people on the board but you saw my other poll where I asked which player you would be willing to lose for the season. Among the 9 were Miller and Starks and the vast majority chose to lose our starting LT despite the struggles of Scott and Hills to replace him in the Tenn game so there is definitely some man love going on...lol"

Hmmm....lets think about that one.....drop an elite TE, or a mediocre, overpaid LT.....
The problem was it was phrased for this season (2010). I could see if it was an after season question where the fans said they would like to look elsewhere to replace Starks. Instead, the fans would rather have Scott or Hills at LT with Miller at TE then Starks at LT and Spaeth at TE. I saw how bad Scott and Hills were ...they had to move TEs there occasionally to help. lol

You have some good points on the:
-he's just running what he's told
-Ben doesn't like to use chekdown receivers.

My only counter to that is assuming Arians knows how to evaluate talent:
-He would be primary or secondary target on some plays if he showed mismatch skills
-He would be used as more than a check down. A bunch of others can play check down...especially on 3rd down. Maybe they didn't want to use Wallace last year (no duh) but this year our #3 can be used so we have Moore, Randel El and Ward to contribute to check downs so I hope this will free Heath up more if that is the case.

I know this. If I had a 6'5 guy who boasted a 78% completion percentage and was truly able to get open, I would slowly increase his yardage to see if his percentage could stay at 78. It is at 78 with an average of 4.9 yards (before YAC) so I would try 10 yards and see what happens. I would toss it to him more in the RedZone to see if the 78% stays that way.
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:09 PM   #38
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

Tomlin gets the credit, he's high up on the coach of the year watch list because of what this team has done when losing 3 QBs.

How many of the other 3 win teams could have counted on getting those 3 wins without their starting QB or even their 2nd and 3rd string backups?

Sure, the defense plays the biggest part but the offense had to be efficient enough not to blow it. And the special teams (other than the kicking game) are much improved.
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Old 10-09-2010, 03:37 PM   #39
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

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I understand he can't change the called routes but this goes to the concept that skill sets contribute to roles. If the team noticed that he kept creating mismatches against the LB, they would design options in there that would allow him to take advantage of mismatches or further they might designate him to be the primary target on a play. Why wouldn't teams want to take advantage of mismatches? (If they are there).
Becuase we are already taking advantage of other mismatches-- Hines Ward and Mike Wallace verses whomever is stuck covering them, Randle El verses the nickelback or linebacker. We could design plays that take more advantage of Heath's talents, if the goal of our offense was to generate fantasy stats for our TEs. SInce it isn't, we use our TE's the way they were designed to be (or need to be out of necessity)-- a hybrid Olineman and short route runner. The medium to long routes are for the WRs.

Again, which of our outstanding wide-outs do we take catches away from so that Heath can get stats that will make you happy with his production?

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That may be because of his running speed and ability to separate skill set. There are plenty of TEs that run medium routes.
Or, maybe we prefer to let the guys that were drafted to run medium to long routes do just that, instead of trying to shoehorn the square peg into the round hole. We aren't the Chargers-- we actually have WRs, so our primary downfield threat does not need to be a TE. We aren't Green Bay, our best receiver isn't a TE (Jennings has all but disappeared this year, Driver is ancient and losing about five steps). We use our TEs as they were intended to be used in our system.

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Never. That's just it. For some TE, when they are covered 1 v 1, it is considered open and the QB can just toss it up. Maybe he doesn't have the vertical leaping ability or the box out power to outmuscle a guy for the ball. It's fine but I had to point out that many TEs have this skill. It is helpful.
Or maybe we just don't expect that from him. Again, our offense is not geared towards generating fantasy stats for guys-- it is made to win games, ugly if need be. Why are you so determined to try and turn a TE into a WR? What you are doing is the equivalent of hating on a 3-4 NT for not having more sacks-- that isn't their role in our system.

In truth, I think it is a combination of factors: 1) Big Ben likes to go deep.....even when there is no deep option and he has a wide open TE underneath. 2) Our Oline has sucked for 2 or 3 years now, and he has to pick up a lot of blocking duties. 3) Our offensive system does not utilize TEs that much (again, not sure if it is by design or out of necessity), that would be more of a dink-n-dunk type of system I would think.

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No. I'm not joking. If he is so good at getting open (and he certainly runs enough pass routs) then they should take advantage of his ability to get open and send him further.
Maybe, but keep in mind-- he is a TE, not a WR. When your TEs are having to run 20 to 30 yards downfield, your offense is not working correctly, and it means you need to spend some draft picks on receivers.

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I'm tired of hearing about this check down excuse.
It's not an excuse-- it is reality. TEs are NOT supposed to be running 20 to 30 yard routes when you have a talented WR corps that is specifically designed to do that.

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Originally Posted by SteelKnight View Post
It is a good point I will admit but if he was so good at getting open, don't you think they would use him as more than that, When you watch other teams, the check down guy changes each play. It might be a RB, TE or WR. It changes.
Yes, Miller is used as a blocker on about half of our plays. Maybe if we had a more dominant offensive line, we could use him as a receiving threat more, but as it stands, our offense sacrificed talent in the trenches in favor of having much better guys at the skill positions like WR, RB, FB. And as a result, in that system, our TEs get the call to block more often than not to compensate for our shoddy Oline play. Even in goalline situations-- WATCH!!! He and Spaeth are often stacked up on our strong side as extra blockers, instead of running for the corner and jump balls.

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I'm not sure if he can get open as easily as you describe but if he can, they are underutilizing him.
Hallelujah, we're making progress....

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Are we going to say that his whole career?
Would be unfortunate, but that depends on what our drafting priorities are. It looks like we are starting to take our Oline more seriously now, and maybe if we can get some more dominant play from our blockers, that would free him up instead of always having to help Flozell Adams not lose his jockstrap to the speedy edge rushers that teams like to put on his side.

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If he were more verbal and passionate, he could request more of a role...to want to be the man to come through for his team.
Come on, man. So first we need to cripple our offense just so we can get Heath more catches and have him start running WR routes, then you want to turn a soft-spoken, selfless team player (the ideal Steeler) into a Terrell Owens?

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My main complaint with the "don't want to take away passes from our WR" argument is that we were terrible on 3rd downs and in the Red Zones so he wouldn't have been taking anything away from others.
And I agree with you 100% on this point, but I don't think Bruce Arians does. Aside from Ward, Heath easily has the best hands of any guy on the team-- that's why I couldn't have been more surprised to hear a Steeler fan bashing him for not winning 1-on-1 matchups-- I thought you were crazy at first. When Ben throws the ball to Heath, he always comes down with it, even with a couple of guys hanging on him. That is one of our major hatred points with Bruce Arians-- he has turned a great TE into a frigging right tackle....

For that matter, it isn't just Heath either. Spaeth supposedly has some pretty soft hands for the ball, but we will never be able to tell because he is usually a FB in our offense (a shame, since Spaeth is like 6'8"-- a giant and a huge redzone threat if we actually used him in that capacity).

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If we were good in those areas and the receivers were catching them in those situations, I wouldn't be arguing about ball distribution.
Again, I will agree with you here, but this part is not on Heath-- that is all Arians and Ben. Ben is getting better about using his checkdowns and short yardage and 3-step-drop options (and Heath's numbers last year illustrated this), but he is still a bonehead a lot of times and always wants to go deep (even after getting sacked on 3 or 4 consecutive plays trying to do just that, like against the Eagles in 2008).

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I know this. If I had a 6'5 guy who boasted a 78% completion percentage and was truly able to get open, I would slowly increase his yardage to see if his percentage could stay at 78. It is at 78 with an average of 4.9 yards (before YAC) so I would try 10 yards and see what happens. I would toss it to him more in the RedZone to see if the 78% stays that way.
That is because you aren't Bruce Arians :-) -- that would make sense. Seriously though-- I am not one of the Arians haters per se, I think he designs some brilliant plays, but he just does not know when to call them or how best to utilize the talent he has on offense. Having a RB that is averaging 4.6 YPC, and you come out 5-wide on 3rd and 1....having a TE that is averaging a catch percentage of 78% and he gets morphed into a lineman....having a great receiving RB in Mewelde Moore and a shaky offensive line, but not running any screen passes (or the few screens we run are azz-ugly and poorly designed). See a pattern here?

The only way to compare Heath to say, a guy like Jermichael FIndley or Antonio Gates, would be to plug Heath into their offensive system to see how he does. RIght now, he has a completely different set of responsibilities in our offense and is unfortunately, being severely underutilized (a lot of us have been saying this for years).
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:45 PM   #40
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Default Re: Who gets the credit for 3-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets View Post
ward - 95 rec .....6 tds
holmes - 79 rec ....5 tds
miller - 76 rec .......6 tds
249 rec

now how many times was holmes ahead of miller in the option order ? i'm guessing most of the time. how many times was miller helping out in pass blocking instead of being a receiver ? but yet he only had 3 receptions less than holmes and scored just as many tds as the receivers... did you complain that holmes couldn't get open ? or that the receivers sucked in the redzone ?

lets look around a bit and see how other teams are distributing the ball

wayne -100
clark - 100
collie --60
260 rec

witten - 94
austin - 81
williams - 37
212 rec

gates - 79
jackson - 68
floyd - 45
192 rec

white - 85
gonzales - 83
jenkins - 50
218 rec

vernon davis - 78
morgan - 52
crabtree - 48
178 rec

looks to me like the teams that throw a lot to their TE's just neglect one of their starting receivers to do so. would you have been happier if miller caught 95 balls and holmes caught 60 ?
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