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Old 12-09-2010, 06:53 AM   #31
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

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Wonder what else he has planned up his sleeve? As Assange really has ruined national security. And top secrets. Because he should be locked away for good. Warrants all over the world, are out for him. He needs to be punished and put away for good!
But he doesn't have warrants out for him all over the world. He has trumped-up charges in Sweden of "sex without a condom", a country barely mentioned (if at all) in these recent leaks. If he had broken any sort of security laws, here in the US or internationally, don't you think those charges would have been filed against him?

He's ruined national security? Or has he improved people's understanding of how government functions? He's done neither, from what I can tell. The leaks only work if people a) want to know what's going on; and b) they take the time to read the documents. Willful ignorance appears to be the overwhelming choice by most people with whom I have spoken, and even the people who do think he's done us a favor haven't even glanced at the documents.

Ten years from now, only a few specialists in think-tanks will have looked these over in any sort of depth, most likely. And you can all go on believing that the most aggressive, militarized country in the world does what it does for noble reasons. Curiously, the Empire is in fact falling apart, which is probably a good thing, but if we wanted to salvage anything good from the massive concentrations of wealth and power we currently have, we would do it by looking in the mirror from time-to-time. That's clearly just not going to happen.
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:01 AM   #32
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

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You're obviously too pompous to distinguish the difference between unaviodable collateral damage, in a wartime situation and the sort of betrayal and exposure that the wikileaks situation brought about for people who thought they were probably doing the right thing for their country. Because to you there is no just war, we are the bad guy, not the Taliban or Al Queda. To you American Imperialism is the root of all evil, so therefore there's no sense even trying to commincate on this sort of subject with you.

I can distinguish between two bads, the lesser of two evil so to speak, and that my friend is what world history is all about. Was the bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden evil? Yeah of course it was? Were those bombings absolutley essential to bring about a winning outcome? No, but they served a purpose nonetheless. They brought about a quicker resolution to the war, because they served to take the fight out of a civilian populace that prior to that wasn't willing to face the fact that they turned a blind eye to their own countries mayhem, and had wrought what they sewn in the end.


Look I know you guys are firm in your opinions, and that's fine. I know you can trot out all sort of rhetoric to support your arguemtn and that's fine too. But I'm not going to bother with that. Because, I'd never change your minds, and it's not worth my time to bother.

What, you don't think there are people of brilliance on both sides of this ( or any) argument? You don't think I could go and find supporting articles and columns just as insightfull and well thought out as anything that you can produce? Are you really that arrogant and self righteous that you can't fathom that there's two rationale sides to this discussion?

While I know this country is flawed, I accept that, because I also know that in the end it usually serves the greater good. I also know that there's never been an unflawed world power and never will be. In the end, in the real world, the people that matter, the ones that genuinely influence world events ( not Ivory towered granola eating, idealists like you and your buddy here) have to choose a side. Not that I matter any more than you, but I've chosen my side, flawed as it may be, and I'm on the side of our country and against those that wish to bring it down or do it harm. I consider Julian Assange to be among that group, and what comes of that is on him


. As they say, you don't grab the tail of the tiger unless you're prepared to deal with it's teeth.Good luck with that Mr Assange, or better yet, not.
Did you puff your chest out a little more when you finished writing that manifesto??

Don't lecture me about siding with our government, I picked up my rifle and stood my post proudly. It's easy to attempt to make this into a good guy vs bad guy argument for you because that's really all you have. You came out making claims that just weren't true and now you have nowhere to go.

If you aren't even going to look at the documents to make an intelligent decision about whether you agree with your government than why even post in this thread? You aren't siding with your government and those who rail against it; you're being an ignorant fool.

Imagine if the colonists took your approach! Imagine if they said, "our government knows best, let's just pay these taxes!" That's what you're doing. People like you would have us still kneeling at the feet of her majesty. Bravo, indeed for your "patriotic" diatribe.

This isn't so simple as you are with us or against us, it's how far are you willing to let your government push you, how many civil liberties are you willing to acquiesce?? Look around you. This or that is constantly done in the name of "national security." Read the damn cables, what's so "classified" about them?? Our government is over-classifying things and infringing upon the rights our founding fathers died for on a daily basis.

You want to trust the government and let them decided everything for you? That's funny to me because I bet you support the tea partiers and their anti-tax movement. What do you think the central theme to that is? Less government? Ring any bells? What do you think Wikileaks is trying to accomplish? A more transparent govt, is less government power. Hmmmm.

The founding fathers wanted government out of our lives. Just read the Constitution, it's pretty apparent. You might say, "yeah, so do I," but then just dismissing Assange as some criminal, without even trying to understand what is going on is ignorant and hypocritical.

Our government is losing billions of dollars on a regular basis in Afghanistan. Billions and that's not on troop costs thats on suitcases of cash given to Afghani government officials who run away with it. How much is that war worth to you? There are millions of people suffering here and we've been there for 9 years. You ever think there is something maybe they aren't telling the truth about?

We know that about Iraq, but you are content to let them lie to you. I am not. That's the difference; you swallow the governments bullshit with a smile on your face and shit stains on your teeth. I want them held accountable for their actions.

I don't support a government that lies to it's citizenry, I support the government defined in our Constitution. So you side with the crooks, I'll side with the truth.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:10 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

What he said.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:15 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

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What he said.
Basically I said if he endangered Afghan nationals that helped coilition forces by exposing their identity to the Taliban and AlQueda, then I'd be happy if he meets the same fate that he exposed them to. I stand by that.

The rest of it, maybe it's not that big of deal?

But aiding and abetting the enemy in a wartime situation isn't something I take lightly. Doing it even once, to the point that you've not only put people willing to ally themselves with our cause in harm's way, but you also discourage further such cooperation with people that may have been inclined to help the allied cause.

While I'm not in favor of continuing the Afghan conflict aka war, I don't support those that try to sabatoge our mission while it's still ongoing.

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=56304
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:19 AM   #35
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

What about the people whose lives he's saving by making chastened American leaders think twice before invading a country without a really good reason to do so? If he's going to factor the one in his thought process, shouldn't he factor the other? In either case, it's disingenuous in the extreme to hold him accountable for killings committed by others, whether they be Taliban or American soldiers.
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Old 12-10-2010, 09:37 AM   #36
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

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Basically I said if he endangered Afghan nationals that helped coilition forces by exposing their identity to the Taliban and AlQueda, then I'd be happy if he meets the same fate that he exposed them to. I stand by that.

The rest of it, maybe it's not that big of deal?

But aiding and abetting the enemy in a wartime situation isn't something I take lightly. Doing it even once, to the point that you've not only put people willing to ally themselves with our cause in harm's way, but you also discourage further such cooperation with people that may have been inclined to help the allied cause.

While I'm not in favor of continuing the Afghan conflict aka war, I don't support those that try to sabatoge our mission while it's still ongoing.

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=56304

What about aiding and abetting Pakistan with billions of dollars in aid while they turn around and help the Taliban?

Don't you think we have a right to know that? Our government tells us one thing, knowing something completely different is happening?

While the lives of some Afghani nationals being lost is tragic, I'm more concerned about the thousands of American lives that have been lost in Afghanistan holding down the fort while we ATTEMPT to persuade these crooks to come to our side.

If Bush or Obama would have said to the public or Congress, "we're going to lose American lives, we're going to give money to our "friends" who will in turn just give it to our enemies, can we go to war now?" What do you think the answer would be?

That's what upsets me. If the truth comes out about why we are over there, what's happening or the same for any other location and it's different than what the govt spoon feeds us, i.e. lies. I believe we have a right to know. Then we can take that knowledge to the voting booth.



Just to be clear, Assange HAS NOT exposed their names by any account. If the government was so concerned, why have they NOT responded to numerous requests by him and media outlets to tell them what names to redact??

Also, just out of curiosity, how do you feel about media who know who and where the Taliban are but don't reveal their location in order to get a story? http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/31/w...ike-these.html That seems much more unpatriotic than anything a non citizen could do.
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Old 12-10-2010, 07:11 PM   #37
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

I'm concerned, not about the wikileaks, but that it might be a distraction from something else more sinister...

How about that riot in London all of a sudden? And what of that driver who somehow, someway. took the wrong turn into that mob that busted up a bulletproof window?

Then Obama changing his stance on tax cuts all of a sudden?

Something sinister I tell you...
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:37 AM   #38
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

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What about aiding and abetting Pakistan with billions of dollars in aid while they turn around and help the Taliban?

Don't you think we have a right to know that? Our government tells us one thing, knowing something completely different is happening?

While the lives of some Afghani nationals being lost is tragic, I'm more concerned about the thousands of American lives that have been lost in Afghanistan holding down the fort while we ATTEMPT to persuade these crooks to come to our side.

If Bush or Obama would have said to the public or Congress, "we're going to lose American lives, we're going to give money to our "friends" who will in turn just give it to our enemies, can we go to war now?" What do you think the answer would be?

That's what upsets me. If the truth comes out about why we are over there, what's happening or the same for any other location and it's different than what the govt spoon feeds us, i.e. lies. I believe we have a right to know. Then we can take that knowledge to the voting booth.



Just to be clear, Assange HAS NOT exposed their names by any account. If the government was so concerned, why have they NOT responded to numerous requests by him and media outlets to tell them what names to redact??

Also, just out of curiosity, how do you feel about media who know who and where the Taliban are but don't reveal their location in order to get a story? http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/31/w...ike-these.html That seems much more unpatriotic than anything a non citizen could do.
I was going on the word of Amnesty International, who generally speaking are non partisan. If they were wrong in what names have been released, and what potetial damage could come of it, then I'm wrong too and stand corrected.

Still I think there's certain things that have to be kept secret, or at least kept secret until a later date. I mean I wouldn't have wanted Operation Overlord revealed prior to the Normandy invasion.

Right or wrong, while we're in a wartime envirorment, certain classified information specific to theatre operations, have to be kept classified until after our fighting men and woman are out of harms way. I don't trust Mr. Assange to make the right call of what is and isn't apporiate to be released at this given time.

I've already gone on the record and said I'm opposed to any further continuation of the Afghan conflict. But just because I disagree with it doesn't give me the right to expose classified information ( if I had it) that could potentially damage our ongoing mission. Nor does Mr Assange have that right imo.
As far as Pakistan goes, that's a whole different discussion, for a different day.
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:51 AM   #39
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

Also, just out of curiosity, how do you feel about media who know who and where the Taliban are but don't reveal their location in order to get a story? http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/31/w...ike-these.html That seems much more unpatriotic than anything a non citizen could do.

I doubt that reporter knew exactly where he was, from a GPS perpective, when he talked to those Tailban members. He probably agreed to be met somewhere, where he was probably blindfolded and taken the rest of the way to their camps. Either that or they were planning on abandoning those locations upon the release of the reporter. Not to say the reporter neccessarily would have violated their position, but I don't think the Taliban would assume that sort of risk if they could have been damaged by it.

Reporters have been doing that for as long as I can remember, there were even members or the American media encamped with the Nazi's during the blitzkrieg I believe.

I think the value of the information that was provided helps the American cause, and certainly didn't put American interests at further risk.
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Old 12-11-2010, 10:42 AM   #40
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Default Re: Why is Julian Assange un-American?

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I was going on the word of Amnesty International, who generally speaking are non partisan. If they were wrong in what names have been released, and what potetial damage could come of it, then I'm wrong too and stand corrected.

Still I think there's certain things that have to be kept secret, or at least kept secret until a later date. I mean I wouldn't have wanted Operation Overlord revealed prior to the Normandy invasion.

Right or wrong, while we're in a wartime envirorment, certain classified information specific to theatre operations, have to be kept classified until after our fighting men and woman are out of harms way. I don't trust Mr. Assange to make the right call of what is and isn't apporiate to be released at this given time.

I've already gone on the record and said I'm opposed to any further continuation of the Afghan conflict. But just because I disagree with it doesn't give me the right to expose classified information ( if I had it) that could potentially damage our ongoing mission. Nor does Mr Assange have that right imo.
As far as Pakistan goes, that's a whole different discussion, for a different day.
I agree that state secrets, troop positions and movements and the like have a rightful place being kept secret, but that's not what he has releases. What I don't agree with is saying a document calling a french guy vain being labeled as classified and then when someone releases that document them being vilified as thought they released a state secret. That's essentially what all these leaks have been so far.

I mean, how is the French being vain in any way secret or classified? That's like saying Americans being loud is a secret.

This is all a testament to the power of the media hype machine. They jumped all over Assange and the majority of Americans (and the world for that matter) followed like blind sheep.

Amnesty was scared about the names being released back in August when Assange turned over the documents to be released to the government and the media. So far, he (or should we say his organization) has redacted the names of any covert informants.
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