Racial diversity in the NHL and other sports (moved posts)

[SCMom]

Originally Posted by SteelKnight

First, I'm educated enough to know that football (soccer) is the most popular sport in the world. Rather than saying I made a false statement, you should have deduced (in context) that I was talking about here in the US. And I did point it out as a counter argument to my point.

The US sports market is very small compared to the rest of the world sports. American football has gained popularity in recent years, but it can't hold a candle to soccer, cricket, rugby...sports that most Americans could care less about, but the rest of the world enjoys thoroughly. Hockey isn't the most popular sport in the US, but it is more popular worldwide than American football. I could give a hoot though if it ever becomes more popular and than American football though. IMO, football is becoming too watered down.

Now...as far as your hockey diverse comments, that's like me saying the NBA is the most diverse. They have players from Phily, DC, Miami, Compton, NY. That's the way I see your comment. And BTW, NBA does have a bunch of Europeans. but i don't think it is very diverse in reality...just like i don't think hockey is.

So me saying that hockey has a variety of international players (which is actually ethnic diversity) is equivalent to the NBA having players from different cities? I don't get that statement at all.

As far as hockey, I mentioned what would make it interesting to me. There will be some others that agree with me and some others that don't. If there are some that agree with me than it would increase the viewership so long as it doesn't make some of you already lovers leave for whatever reason.

You said diversity would make it more interesting for you. I still don't understand what kind of diversity you are talking about. Are you talking about racial, ethnic, player position...what? If it's racial, well there are some players of different race that play the game...but they are usually American or Canadian. Ethnicly, there's boatloads of players from different ethnic backgrounds. Position...well, you can't really change that without completely changing the game.

I tried to like hockey. I started as a Bruins fan and just stayed loyal and then after several years I became bored with the sport. Just because you are spoiled to have had Lemieux and now Crosby, don't think it is interesting for all teams. lol

I take offense to you thinking I'm spoiled as a hockey fan. I became a fan at an early age (about 5..1985) and yes, Mario was on the team then, but they still stunk (for the most part). And being 5, I didn't really know the difference...it was just exciting to me. And being a fan when Rico Fata was the best player isn't spoiled at all.

And it is interesting to me for all teams. I enjoy watching all games. I love the sport more than I love any one player. I'd be a fan if there were no Lemieux or Crosby. Pittsburgh was just blessed to get two great players in one generation.

Again, if you don't like it, that's fine...but you still haven't quite explained the whole diversity thing.

*Edit* You have inexplicably made me want to go watch a bunch of hockey fights.

[SCMom]

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

I have a good theory about that: Football is a social game. With other sports (like hockey, soccer, etc.) you have the fast paced, constant game that you continually have to watch (and not make a sammich, pee, or look away for a second) so it doesn't fit into the American "social" paradigm. Unless you watch your sports alone.

Now Football, you have time in between plays to talk to your friends, pee, hang out, and be social with each other, especially in public gatherings like bars.

Yeah, I get what you mean. That's more for the casual fan though. I myself get extremely annoyed with constant TV timeouts and the over abundance of play reviews. It slows the game down to a deadening pace...especially at the end of halves.

I'm not a social sports watcher. I want to see the game...and will hold it in until intermissions.

I understand though that the sport is watched by more casual fans than hardcore fans though, so in that respect you may be onto something.

[SteelKnight]

Originally Posted by SCMom

The US sports market is very small compared to the rest of the world sports. American football has gained popularity in recent years, but it can't hold a candle to soccer, cricket, rugby...sports that most Americans could care less about, but the rest of the world enjoys thoroughly. Hockey isn't the most popular sport in the US, but it is more popular worldwide than American football. I could give a hoot though if it ever becomes more popular and than American football though. IMO, football is becoming too watered down.



So me saying that hockey has a variety of international players (which is actually ethnic diversity) is equivalent to the NBA having players from different cities? I don't get that statement at all.



You said diversity would make it more interesting for you. I still don't understand what kind of diversity you are talking about. Are you talking about racial, ethnic, player position...what? If it's racial, well there are some players of different race that play the game...but they are usually American or Canadian. Ethnicly, there's boatloads of players from different ethnic backgrounds. Position...well, you can't really change that without completely changing the game.



I take offense to you thinking I'm spoiled as a hockey fan. I became a fan at an early age (about 5..1985) and yes, Mario was on the team then, but they still stunk (for the most part). And being 5, I didn't really know the difference...it was just exciting to me. And being a fan when Rico Fata was the best player isn't spoiled at all.

And it is interesting to me for all teams. I enjoy watching all games. I love the sport more than I love any one player. I'd be a fan if there were no Lemieux or Crosby. Pittsburgh was just blessed to get two great players in one generation.

Again, if you don't like it, that's fine...but you still haven't quite explained the whole diversity thing.

To put it simply, I was talking about the US market and US TV market...simple. I was actually thinking about what could help the NHL...not the sport of hockey worldwide. Sometimes I think things are obvious as far as context of conversation and they are not to some people.(nature of the internet).

One could argue each city/state has its own flavor and that may be diverse for some and not for others. The same way when you watch hockey it screams diversity to you, it doesn't for me. It looks like we are going to agree to disagree on the diversity but I'll say this, sometimes certain cultural differences between one white group and another might come out (cooking, heritage parade, etc) but it is not always evident while watching a hockey match. It would be the same as having 15 different African countries all black all doing basketball and saying it is super diverse. Sure when it comes to customs, cooking, language, etc, it will be very diverse. I guess the answer to your question of what I'm talking about is "visually diverse". So for example, a Hispanic, a Middle Easterner, an (East) Indian might all be considered Caucasian but they may be "visually diverse". I don't want to have to sit down with each and have an interview to go over their backgrounds to appreciate the diversity.

My concept is simple. There is a group of people that already love it and watch. If there is a group of people like me who would find it more interesting if it were diverse then automatically the viewership numbers increase unless people from your group drop out once it becomes more diverse. So the question then becomes how many would find it more interesting if it had more diversity? It's useless to debate among hockey fans. That group has already been filtered. It is the non-fans that should discuss whether they would find it more interesting or not

[SteelKnight]

Originally Posted by SCMom

Yeah, I get what you mean. That's more for the casual fan though. I myself get extremely annoyed with constant TV timeouts and the over abundance of play reviews. It slows the game down to a deadening pace...especially at the end of halves.

I'm not a social sports watcher. I want to see the game...and will hold it in until intermissions.

I understand though that the sport is watched by more casual fans than hardcore fans though, so in that respect you may be onto something.

BTW, one thing that kills soccer for me is the ties. I hate it hate it. i hate wasting my time and ending up with a tie. I love the later single elimination World Cup matches where I know there will be no tie allowed and it will go to penalty kicks if need be.

Hockey was smart to add the shootouts but still...

All the sports that have a million games can cause fans to lose interest. I had decided that baseball would be more exciting if instead of 3 separate meaningless games there were 3 games series where you get an extra point if you win the series. I know they would still need to finish the 3rd game if it goes 2-0 (for money) so it would count but whoever won the 2/3 would get like an extra win...something like that. You could still keep track of regular wins but you could have something called "points" which would be wins + series wins.

[SCMom]

Originally Posted by SteelKnight

To put it simply, I was talking about the US market and US TV market...simple. I was actually thinking about what could help the NHL...not the sport of hockey worldwide. Sometimes I think things are obvious as far as context of conversation and they are not to some people.(nature of the internet).

One could argue each city/state has its own flavor and that may be diverse for some and not for others. The same way when you watch hockey it screams diversity to you, it doesn't for me. It looks like we are going to agree to disagree on the diversity but I'll say this, sometimes certain cultural differences between one white group and another might come out (cooking, heritage parade, etc) but it is not always evident while watching a hockey match. It would be the same as having 15 different African countries all black all doing basketball and saying it is super diverse. Sure when it comes to customs, cooking, language, etc, it will be very diverse. I guess the answer to your question of what I'm talking about is "visually diverse". So for example, a Hispanic, a Middle Easterner, an (East) Indian might all be considered Caucasian but they may be "visually diverse". I don't want to have to sit down with each and have an interview to go over their backgrounds to appreciate the diversity.

My concept is simple. There is a group of people that already love it and watch. If there is a group of people like me who would find it more interesting if it were diverse then automatically the viewership numbers increase unless people from your group drop out once it becomes more diverse. So the question then becomes how many would find it more interesting if it had more diversity? It's useless to debate among hockey fans. That group has already been filtered. It is the non-fans that should discuss whether they would find it more interesting or not

You completely lost me on this entire post. I really don't know what most of it has to do with the sport. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject, cause I don't know where you're going with this.

To siphon the conversation back a little to racial diversity...I doubt having an extremely racially diverse hockey league would make much difference to fans and non-fans...seeing as how the NFL and NBA are about as racially diverse as hockey is. I just don't get why racial diversity would make the sport more interesting to some. If the way it is played isn't interesting to you now, it never will be.

[Stu Pidasso]

Originally Posted by SCMom

Yeah, I get what you mean. That's more for the casual fan though. I myself get extremely annoyed with constant TV timeouts and the over abundance of play reviews. It slows the game down to a deadening pace...especially at the end of halves.

I hear you, and I have your salvation. Here's what I do when I watch alone: I start the DVR recording. I wait until 23 minutes after kickoff to start watching the game. skip through the commercials/replays/etc. By halftime, you're caught up. Rinse, repeat for the second half. Your game still ends at the same time, but you don't have commercials. If you're still behind at halftime, just fast forward...

[SteelKnight]

Originally Posted by SCMom

You completely lost me on this entire post. I really don't know what most of it has to do with the sport. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject, cause I don't know where you're going with this.

To siphon the conversation back a little to racial diversity...I doubt having an extremely racially diverse hockey league would make much difference to fans and non-fans...seeing as how the NFL and NBA are about as racially diverse as hockey is. I just don't get why racial diversity would make the sport more interesting to some. If the way it is played isn't interesting to you now, it never will be.

You didn't understand the entire post? lol You jumped to the third point so the 2 points you seemed to miss I can summarize each

1. I was talking about the NHL with US audience and not "hockey" worldwide so I wanted to bring us back to what i was talking about.

2. The analogy of 15 different African countries is a perfect analogy because I know you were going to try to go for "Hey, if you talk to them, they will have different European cultures." I answered your question clearly as "visual diversity" so that could include race but it would also include ethnicity where you could tell by looking (3 clear Caucasian examples...Hispanic, Middle-Eastern, East Indian)...not sitting down to do an interview with each and every player to illicit the difference.

So now that you understand "visual diversity" which includes race from there we can just agree to disagree. I think diversity that reflect more of what America is about MIGHT appeal more to some people who are not fans. I still think football is diverse in that for example if you told me to guess the race (for example) of the top 5 players in the next draft, I couldn't tell you. If you told me to guess the race of the person being interviewed post game, I couldn't tell you. Basketball sort of held on to fans because it used to be all white. My guess is if it started just black and stayed that way, it wouldn't be as popular. That's JMO. Football has that same white foundation.

That's fine that we disagree but in the heart of hearts I think you know what I mean by visual diversity...no sit down interviews to prove it. Personally I enjoy seeing inclusive sports where the only loyalty is the color of the uniform. So I would enjoy watching the bonding of different groups (groups that couldn't all drink from the same water fountain in the past) in hockey. My point is simple, even if it is just a small percentage of the non viewers, the number still goes up (so long as there are no current viewers who drop out). The only question is whether it would be like a Tiger effect or not. maybe one day we will find out.

I feel the same way about Nascar.

There will always be people who enjoy inclusiveness more and those who don't care for it (or even are offended by it) so people will be different. It's not worth arguing over.

[SteelKnight]

Originally Posted by SCMom

You completely lost :

BTW. When I was looking at Emmanuel Sanders website early in the year, it felt like the American ideal we are going for with people of all different backgrounds and even some from Mexico rooting him on and it was just something special to watch race be no issue and the only color was black and gold. It just felt very American. I like that.

At the same time...there will be others who don't care for that.

[SCMom]

Originally Posted by SteelKnight

You didn't understand the entire post? lol You jumped to the third point so the 2 points you seemed to miss I can summarize each

1. I was talking about the NHL with US audience and not "hockey" worldwide so I wanted to bring us back to what i was talking about.

2. The analogy of 15 different African countries is a perfect analogy because I know you were going to try to go for "Hey, if you talk to them, they will have different European cultures." I answered your question clearly as "visual diversity" so that could include race but it would also include ethnicity where you could tell by looking (3 clear Caucasian examples...Hispanic, Middle-Eastern, East Indian)...not sitting down to do an interview with each and every player to illicit the difference.

So now that you understand "visual diversity" which includes race from there we can just agree to disagree. I think diversity that reflect more of what America is about MIGHT appeal more to some people who are not fans. I still think football is diverse in that for example if you told me to guess the race (for example) of the top 5 players in the next draft, I couldn't tell you. If you told me to guess the race of the person being interviewed post game, I couldn't tell you. Basketball sort of held on to fans because it used to be all white. My guess is if it started just black and stayed that way, it wouldn't be as popular. That's JMO. Football has that same white foundation.

That's fine that we disagree but in the heart of hearts I think you know what I mean by visual diversity...no sit down interviews to prove it. Personally I enjoy seeing inclusive sports where the only loyalty is the color of the uniform. So I would enjoy watching the bonding of different groups (groups that couldn't all drink from the same water fountain in the past) in hockey. My point is simple, even if it is just a small percentage of the non viewers, the number still goes up (so long as there are no current viewers who drop out). The only question is whether it would be like a Tiger effect or not. maybe one day we will find out.

I feel the same way about Nascar.

There will always be people who enjoy inclusiveness more and those who don't care for it (or even are offended by it) so people will be different. It's not worth arguing over.

I'm sorry, but all this talk of "visual diversity" and finding out a persons culture through interview talk is just pointless to me. You do know that not just Caucasians play the sport right? So saying that one mixed race guy changing a predominantly white sport might have the same effect in hockey means absolutely nothing to anyone who is a fan (because, from watching more games than just the team you root for, you get a bigger picture of who is in the league).

Here's a little snippet of an article shedding some light on the racial diversity in hockey.

When Anson Carter was ten years old, his life was much the same as most of the other boys growing up in his Scarborough, Ontario, neighborhood. He went to school, came home, and played hockey. As he continued to play, advancing rapidly through his local leagues and on to Michigan State University, he began to stand out for two reasons. One, he was almost always the best player on the ice, and two, he was black—a rarity in hockey.

Carter was the second-leading scorer for the Boston Bruins in 1999–2000, was traded to the Edmonton Oilers in 2000, to the New York Rangers in 2002, and went to the Vancouver Canucks in 2005. He was one of 17 black athletes in the NHL in 2004. It's a number that may seem low (given the 600+ players in the NHL today) but it still represents a noticeable increase in what has always been thought of as a "white" sport.

According to league reports, only 18 black players reached the NHL between 1958 and 1991. While racism certainly played some role in keeping the figure to a minimum, it may have been more a function of the demographic makeup of Canada. In 1971, Canadians made up over 95% of the NHL, and only .02% of all Canadians were black. Today, the black population in Canada has increased to 2%. In addition, the United States, with a much higher black population than Canada, now contributes approximately 15% of all NHL players while Canada produces just over 60%

Read more: African American Hockey Players in the NHL: History & List of Players — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bhmho...#ixzz1AOVnaN8s

As of right now (not including the ethnic players...just strictly African descent or mixed decent) there are 25 bi-racial or black players in the NHL, 11 of Asian descent, 4 Latin American, 5 of Middle Eastern descent...and all with notable players. (Examples: Justin Abdelkader who is American in nationality, but has Jordanian and Polish parents. Scott Gomez and Raffi Torres...both of Mexican and Latin American descent. Billy Guerin was also of Latin American descent. Devin Setoguchi, Manny Malholtra and Paul Kariya are all Canadian, but of direct Asian descent. Dustin Byfuglien, Evander Kane, Jarome Iginla...all famous black/bi-racial players).

*p.s.* I'm intrigued by our discussion, and want to continue it...but am going to create a different thread in a more appropriate section.

[SteelKnight]

Originally Posted by SCMom

I'm sorry, but all this talk of "visual diversity" and finding out a persons culture through interview talk is just pointless to me. You do know that not just Caucasians play the sport right? So saying that one mixed race guy changing a predominantly white sport might have the same effect in hockey means absolutely nothing to anyone who is a fan (because, from watching more games than just the team you root for, you get a bigger picture of who is in the league).

Here's a little snippet of an article shedding some light on the racial diversity in hockey.



As of right now (not including the ethnic players...just strictly African descent or mixed decent) there are 25 bi-racial or black players in the NHL, 11 of Asian descent, 4 Latin American, 5 of Middle Eastern descent...and all with notable players. (Examples: Justin Abdelkader who is American in nationality, but has Jordanian and Polish parents. Scott Gomez and Raffi Torres...both of Mexican and Latin American descent. Billy Guerin was also of Latin American descent. Devin Setoguchi, Manny Malholtra and Paul Kariya are all Canadian, but of direct Asian descent. Dustin Byfuglien, Evander Kane, Jarome Iginla...all famous black/bi-racial players).

*p.s.* I'm intrigued by our discussion, and want to continue it...but am going to create a different thread in a more appropriate section.

I guess you are right. The sport is dead for good then. lol. I didn't realize it already had some diversity and still got no appeal. All I know know is from the highlights (that ESPN forces on you by squeezing them between the sports people care about) so those diverse players must not be very good since I don't see them. That makes a difference. If Tiger had sucked, he would have made no difference to the sport.

It was just a theory but I'll concede but it is still possible that if those players are actually good it might make a difference.

By the way, my "visual diversity" was not a trick. I was just trying to avoid that kind of thing you get when people play dumb and try to act like they don't know what you are talking about like "Hey are you saying all white people are alike?" or "Are you saying all black people are alike?". I wanted to include different ethnicities (not just race) but not play games with "Hey Russia has a different culture and ethnicity than Yugoslovia..."