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Old 05-02-2011, 01:31 PM   #31
thumper
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

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Originally Posted by Steelerindc View Post
Does anyone think with Lake being the DB coach that he can get these guys to play any better. Being as though he played with a HOF'er and replaced one year and did a damn good job at it.
I don't think that b/c Lake had awesome physical talent and drive
that those traits will bleed over into coaching the new guys. I really
don't think coaches make _that_ much a difference and just b/c a
former-player was great does it mean those he coaches will become
great.

Mean Joe Greene was epic. But as a coach, he was nothing special.
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Old 05-02-2011, 02:01 PM   #32
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

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Originally Posted by sexyllama View Post
0. People say you (and the Steelers) never draft for NEED. Uh.. Pouncey? We needed offensive line and we drafted him. Uh... Santonio.. uh we need a receiver and we drafted him. The whole bullshit we don't draft for need is utterly stupid.
We always draft a need, that's why we're not going to draft a QB, Center, TE, or DE in the next 4-5 years even if someone at that position happens to be the BPA becasue we're set there. We don't always our biggest need. We have a few/bunch of position areas we're going to consider and we draft the best player from those positions. There's a very rational reason we do this and it's exactly the reason we're consistently in Super Bowl contention.

Center wasn't necessarilly our biggest need last year, but we still went with Pouncey. A lot of people were upset that we didn't go with a CB with 18 last year because they felt that was our biggest need. We drafted Pouncey because we had a need at Center and because he was the best player available. When we drafted Santonio, we had needs at OLB, O-line, CB. We went with Holmes because he was the BPA.

You can't argue that we didn't need a DE to develope, seeing that both starters will be 33, and 36 next season.

Quote:
1. My reasoning it perfectly fine. We didn't do enough to raise the talent level in our secondary. Are you telling me we the DB's have more talent now than before draft? Seriously?
Perhaps not. But you seem to be insuating we made poor draft choices because of that. What I'm telling you is, the Steelers aren't going to draft a guy because we have a need at that position. They will only take a guy if they think he's going to be good, that is, better than other guys they need at other positions that are available in the draft. This is the best policy to employ for a team that wants to sustain a winning franchise.

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1a. With the labor situation, do you think a 3rd Round CB and a 4th Round Project Athlete CB have a real chance to succeed with no coaching or access to the playbook. (I totally agree with you that past the CB Harris the draft was a roll-of-the-dice at best on CB's)
I would say probably better than any other position we addressed in round 3-4.

Quote:
4. Did I say we were doomed? Once again ... NO. Did I say the the draft picks were horrible? Uh, NO. I said we didn't draft well for our biggest weakness. If you look at the facts listed above I'm still correct.
I really can't argue with this. CB was our biggest weakness and we didn't do much to improve it. This I admit. But, I don't have a problem with it. You seem to be saying this was a mistake, while I disagree.

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5a. Totally agree with you that only NE and GB or a hot/lucky QB can do that to us. Unfortunately, we need luck or we'll have to play one of those teams to in the Playoffs. Do we currently have the DB talent and depth to defend vs. NE/GB... I'd still say "NO"
Every team needs luck. No team matches up with every other team perfectly. In 2007, The Patriots would have beat 31 out of 32 teams in the SB, but they just happened to play the one that could beat them. If they rearanged their whole drafting philosophy just the beat the Giants, they risk giving up their stranglehold on the rest of the league.

Not every team has the fire-power to spread us out. Most notably, nobody in our division can - at least to this poine Joe Flacco hasn't showed the ability to sling it against us. With that in mind, I'm glad the Steelers didn't alter their strategy to beat Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers.

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5b. Once again, we match up well with many conventional offenses so our Nickel and Dime don't get exposed but when we do get exposed it's an EPIC blowout.
ok

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5d. I don't think I'm exaggerating the fact that our Defense doesn't handle the NFL variant of the Spread Offense well. It's pretty well known and it's still our biggest weakness.
You exagerate by suggesting we should have dropped everything and drafted a CB in the first round because it's our biggest weakness, even if their were better players available at other positions.
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Old 05-02-2011, 02:58 PM   #33
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

2009-10, the OL was a huge need and Pouncey replaced the weakest link in JH. JH was dominated by NT's and his production was in steep decline.
2010-11, the OL was snake-bitten by injuries, I don't think we could possibly have that many injuries again

As far as our Draft, I've never said or insinuated it was even remotely horrible. I actually like Gilbert and Heyward. I just find it a little dubious that the 11th DE taken in the 1st Round is a dominant game-changing gem that 30 other teams missed. Seeing that Ras and Aaron went 33/34, player rating-wise, I don't see a big difference with selecting either one of them but time will tell. (i.e. I've never said drop everything and move up in the draft)

With the unknown status of Aaron Smith, maybe DE it was our biggest need.
With so many UFA DB's, I'm thinking they have some free agent plans to address our depth. I'm not saying a 10m Free agent DB, just some solid Deshea Townsend cover ability.

Llama
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:07 PM   #34
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

Coaching can make a HUGE difference.

Just look at what our Offensive Line Coach did in one year. Even with the injuries, the OL was a substantial upgrade over 2009-10 season, obviously a 1st round draft pick helps but they were at least very competitive. Not incredible but who could be with so many injuries.

Llama
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:39 PM   #35
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

I don't think a DE will ever be a game changing gem in our system...BUT that doesn't mean they don't hold more value to making our system work than say a CB. That's why you pick heyward over Williams, Ras-I, and Harris. That's what makes it a better pick.

As far as the kid from citadel...a gamble? Yes...they also said the same thing about our current #1 CB Ike Taylor. Small school kid with size and skills but needed time to progress. Why not take a gamble? Like you said (and I said previously) it's a 4th rounder, no big deal if he doesn't pan out. And with the lockout I think NO CB that was available would of been able to contribute right away. We never draft players to fill in right away. Sometimes it works out that way (pouncey, ben roth) but it's not how we operate as a franchise.

What it comes down to is you hold a different drafting philosophy than the steelers.

You would pick the BPA in the area of highest need (CB)
The steelers would (and did) pick the BPA out of all the areas of need. (CB, DL, and OL)

That's it. Mystery solved.

You say you don't understand why we didn't go CB b/c the two guys available went 33/34...It's b/c we value DE more highly than CB's in our system. That's how I see it. And now your considering that DE might of been the highest overall team need, in which case the pick makes even more sense doesn't it?
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Old 05-02-2011, 05:01 PM   #36
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

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Originally Posted by sexyllama View Post
As far as our Draft, I've never said or insinuated it was even remotely horrible.
You didn't insuate that it was horrible, you insuated that we should have taken a CB instead of Heyward.

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I just find it a little dubious that the 11th DE taken in the 1st Round is a dominant game-changing gem that 30 other teams missed. Seeing that Ras and Aaron went 33/34, player rating-wise, I don't see a big difference with selecting either one of them but time will tell.
Most of the defensive ends taken in the first round were 3-4 DEs that would correlate more closely to a OLB in the Steelers 4-3 scheme. So essentially, you comparing 2 different positions that share the same name. A DE in LeBeau's scheme would need to be around 300 lbs in order to take double teams and fortify the LOS. Defensive ends in a 4-3 rush the passer, essentially.

There were 7 DEs taken before Heyward, and only 3 of them maybe could have played 3-4 DE. These 4 couldn't:

7th Aldon Smith - 260 lbs
14th Robert Quinn - 265 lbs
16th Ryan Kerrigan - 267 lbs
20th Adrian Claybord - 280 lbs

So really, Heyward was the 3rd selected at his position, if you were to assume JJ Watt and Cameron Jordon could play 3-4 DE, but I doubt that.

Anyway, no two drafts are the same. Ben was the 3rd QB taken in his draft but was better than most QBs taken first. You can't assume other teams know what they're doing (of course, on truly can't assume the Steelers know what they're doing, either. But, we're going to have to take somebody's word for it, and the Steelers have a much better track record than most teams, and they are especially more reliable than most of the journalists you guys have quoted)

Quote:
With so many UFA DB's, I'm thinking they have some free agent plans to address our depth. I'm not saying a 10m Free agent DB, just some solid Deshea Townsend cover ability.
I doubt it. I only believe they plan on resigning Taylor and Gay.
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Old 05-02-2011, 05:07 PM   #37
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

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I don't think a DE will ever be a game changing gem in our system...
You don't miss your water until your well runs dry. Defensive End is one of those positions you don't appreciate until it's gone. Remember when Aaron Smith was injured in 2007? Our run defense was horrible after that. We didn't have to worry about teams passing all over us because they just shoved the rock down our throats.

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You say you don't understand why we didn't go CB b/c the two guys available went 33/34...It's b/c we value DE more highly than CB's in our system. That's how I see it. And now your considering that DE might of been the highest overall team need, in which case the pick makes even more sense doesn't it?
Well said.
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Old 05-02-2011, 05:41 PM   #38
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

Totally agree clopp. They may not be flashy or make splash plays like traditional 4-3 DE's such as Peppers, Mario Williams, Freeney, Tuck, etc... but the guys we have are just as valuable to us. And like ya said when one of them goes down (smith in 07) it's so painful to watch. We seem to have picked a good future starter in ziggy, and hopefully got another good one w/ Heyward. That position has gone from dire need to potentially set for the next 7-10 years.
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Old 05-02-2011, 06:10 PM   #39
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

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Old 05-02-2011, 06:10 PM   #40
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Default Re: Steelers take Florida OT with second round pick

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Totally agree clopp. They may not be flashy or make splash plays like traditional 4-3 DE's such as Peppers, Mario Williams, Freeney, Tuck, etc... but the guys we have are just as valuable to us. And like ya said when one of them goes down (smith in 07) it's so painful to watch. We seem to have picked a good future starter in ziggy, and hopefully got another good one w/ Heyward. That position has gone from dire need to potentially set for the next 7-10 years.
That is why I am not having a fit over going DE with our first pick. I believe
they think Heyward is more special than any CB we could have grabbed
there. One reason why we contend almost every year is because they
never miss on our first rounder - not since Jermain Stephens and Huey
Richardson.

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