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Old 09-27-2011, 09:34 AM   #1
NEWstevo
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Default Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

Age old question.

Big Ben is a very prolific passer in the pocket and when he has time, he can pick apart a defense like a Brady or Manning. But unlike most quarterbacks he gets “better” when he is forced to adlib and extend the play.

The obvious down side to adlibbing is that only HE knows what he’s is going to do, where he is going to run, when he is going to pass etc… and that makes it pretty hard to protect him. When the play called said Ben’s gonna go right, the tackle goes right, and yet Ben goes left, guess what happens? Either a TD to Wallace or some 300lb+ end leaves tire marks on #7.

Brady sits back there and paints his nails while his receivers run across the field in front of him. Then dink-dunk, the Patriots have 4 touchdowns.

How many times have we all said: “Man, what if Ben had that much time to throw?” “Can you imagine if Ben had a great offensive line like the Patriots?” “What if Noll had just drafted Marino?”

So my question is this: Is it Ben Roethlisberger’s style to scramble that gets him sacked and beat up? Or is the Steelers’ offensive line just one of the worst in football?

The answer is both. And what’s worse, is that both factors actually INCREASE the other. So as long as Ben plays QB in the ‘Burgh, nothing will change… except the amount of sacks he takes and the amount of rings on his fingers (plural).

I'm just glad he is the toughest QB in football. Oh, and that now he is married too (haha, it's ok to make that joke, right?).

Go Steelers!
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

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Originally Posted by NEWstevo View Post
Big Ben is a very prolific passer in the pocket and when he has time, he can pick apart a defense like a Brady or Manning.
He can be a prolific passer in the right conditions, but he absolutely cannot pick apart a defense like Brady or Manning on a consistent basis. The only way one can conlude he can is by making excuses.

Quote:
But unlike most quarterbacks he gets “better” when he is forced to adlib and extend the play.
Who cares?

He has a great talent at ad-libbing during a football game, but ad-libbing doesn't make for an efficient offense in the NFL. Especially considering defenses have seemed to learn how to handle Ben.

Quote:
The obvious down side to adlibbing is that only HE knows what he’s is going to do, where he is going to run, when he is going to pass etc… and that makes it pretty hard to protect him. When the play called said Ben’s gonna go right, the tackle goes right, and yet Ben goes left, guess what happens? Either a TD to Wallace or some 300lb+ end leaves tire marks on #7.
So essentially, we're playing the lottery......

Quote:
Brady sits back there and paints his nails while his receivers run across the field in front of him. Then dink-dunk, the Patriots have 4 touchdowns.
He dinks and dunks down the field and scores TDs in the red-zone. As long as my team scores a TD, I'm happy.

Ben's offense is consistently in the bottom/middle in the red-zone, compared to other offenses. Blame Arians if you want, go ahead. Ben apologists have shown great logicall flexibility in making their excuses.

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How many times have we all said: [I]“Man, what if Ben had that much time to throw?” “Can you imagine if Ben had a great offensive line like the Patriots?” “What if Noll had just drafted Marino?”
Why play the "What if......" game? Ben doesn't have a great offensive line like Brady has consistently had. Ben would certainly benefit from a better one. But,

As Mike Tomlin says: "It is what it is......."

So, instead of playing the hypothetical, let's just evaluate how he handles his situation.

I personally think he handles it pretty well.

Essentially he runs the Mike Martz offense. A bunch of 5 and 7 step drops looking for a big play off of long routes which take some time to develop. Admittedly, this offense doesn't mesh welll with a poor offensive line. Overall, in my opinion, this offense just isn't effecient in general. It requires too much physical talent from WRs, too much talent from the o-line. It also requires a physicall gifted quarterback who can hang in the pocket and make deep throws down the field. But, the quarterback doesn't really need much smarts, compared to what it takes to run the west coast system.

The above system is the only system in which Ben would succeed. I think he does pretty well at it. Out of all the people who've run such an offense, he's probably in the top 10 of all time.

Nevertheless, this offense generally sucks. Mike Martz has been fired a million times. Arains only has a job because Dick Lebeau carred his offense to 3 Super Bowls. This is a 90's offense in 2011. I could personally care less how good Ben runs it; I'd still rather have a smart quarterback capable of running an efficient system. And I would definitely prefer a quarterback who can get TDs in the redzone consistently to one who could chuck it deep.

Last edited by cloppbeast; 09-27-2011 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:51 AM   #3
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Default Re: Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

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"I'm just glad he is the toughest QB in football."
Well put, No other QB can continue the way Ben does with all these hits and pressure. Though, this shouldn't be an excuse for his accuracy. He's in his 7th year and should have his throws in better control. That said, at least he doesn't complain like Vick.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/m...2611?gt1=39002

After the game where Vick bruised his hand...
''At some point something catastrophic is going to happen,'' Vick said after the game. ''Not to blame the refs or say that it was their fault, it's just one of those unfortunate situations and I just think more precautions should be taken when I'm inside the pocket. If you look at all the replays, I'm on the ground every time and it's unfortunate for myself and it's unfortunate for my team and I'll be lying if I said I wasn't, if I were to sit here and say I wasn't frustrated right now because of that.''

All I can say at this point, is that we knew to have low expectations of the O-line (so should Ben and Arians). Ben, however, is not meeting the expectations set, IMO, based on the last 4 games.
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

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Originally Posted by NEWstevo View Post
Age old question.

Big Ben is a very prolific passer in the pocket and when he has time, he can pick apart a defense like a Brady or Manning. But unlike most quarterbacks he gets “better” when he is forced to adlib and extend the play.

The obvious down side to adlibbing is that only HE knows what he’s is going to do, where he is going to run, when he is going to pass etc… and that makes it pretty hard to protect him. When the play called said Ben’s gonna go right, the tackle goes right, and yet Ben goes left, guess what happens? Either a TD to Wallace or some 300lb+ end leaves tire marks on #7.

Brady sits back there and paints his nails while his receivers run across the field in front of him. Then dink-dunk, the Patriots have 4 touchdowns.

How many times have we all said: “Man, what if Ben had that much time to throw?” “Can you imagine if Ben had a great offensive line like the Patriots?” “What if Noll had just drafted Marino?”

So my question is this: Is it Ben Roethlisberger’s style to scramble that gets him sacked and beat up? Or is the Steelers’ offensive line just one of the worst in football?

The answer is both. And what’s worse, is that both factors actually INCREASE the other. So as long as Ben plays QB in the ‘Burgh, nothing will change… except the amount of sacks he takes and the amount of rings on his fingers (plural).

I'm just glad he is the toughest QB in football. Oh, and that now he is married too (haha, it's ok to make that joke, right?).

Go Steelers!

I absolutely agree with this!

The way Ben likes to play, I don't think there really IS a perfect O-line for him (unless they start installing side and rear-view mirrors on lineman's helmets).

That said, I DO think the line play could be more consistent so I'm not giving them a pass, but there's a lot of truth to the fact that Ben often causes the problems we see as "bad protection".

Unfortunately, there really is no solution to this problem.
Making Ben a pocket-passer would ruin his style of play (look at what Philly is trying to do with Vick), but letting him run around kills any continuity on the O-line.

A possible solution might be a lighter O-line which would allow them to run around more without getting too gassed, but that would pretty much take away any chance of any "Power" running game.

Seems like a "West Coast" style would be more in order (which I've been saying ought to be done for years), but then the whole macho "Steeler Football" mythos would have to be shelved.

Frankly, I'd rather the Steelers went in a more West Coast direction, but as long as everyone still thinks Joe Greene is going to come trotting out onto the field, that's not gonna happen.

That's a shame because Ben is much more suited to a West Coast game than he is for "Steeler Football".
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

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That's a shame because Ben is much more suited to a West Coast game than he is for "Steeler Football".
I couldn't disagree with you more.

A quarterback needs diagnose the defense immediatlly and find the right receiver extremely quickly in a west coast system. I rarely even see Ben go through his progressions.

Ten pump fakes and indecision doesn't cut it in a west coast offense.
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

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Originally Posted by cloppbeast View Post
I couldn't disagree with you more.

A quarterback needs diagnose the defense immediatlly and find the right receiver extremely quickly in a west coast system. I rarely even see Ben go through his progressions.

Ten pump fakes and indecision doesn't cut it in a west coast offense.
I get what you're saying but I could argue that the reason he does as you say is BECAUSE he doesn't have a West Coast offense.

The best way I could describe what we have now is a "Steeler Offense" that wants to be a West Coast offense.
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:43 AM   #7
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Default Re: Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

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I get what you're saying but I could argue that the reason he does as you say is BECAUSE he doesn't have a West Coast offense.
Fair enough. I would love to at least try it, to see how well it works. This offense does not belong in the NFL at all.

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The best way I could describe what we have now is a "Steeler Offense" that wants to be a West Coast offense.
We don't even have a "Steeler Offense" in my opinion. If we want one, we should go get Shanahan. This offense doesn't revolve around running the ball at all. Arians only calls runs because he ought to, not because he wants to. He doesn't want to get yelled at. Running the ball is not a priority. Arian's sole priority throwing deep. It's almost like watching the Raiders in the 70's.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

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We don't even have a "Steeler Offense" in my opinion. If we want one, we should go get Shanahan. This offense doesn't revolve around running the ball at all. Arians only calls runs because he ought to, not because he wants to. He doesn't want to get yelled at. Running the ball is not a priority. Arian's sole priority throwing deep. It's almost like watching the Raiders in the 70's.
Well, part of that problem ( a big part) is that we've never tried to replace Bettis.

We got Parker who was more of a Barry Sanders style runner and we tried to turn him into Jerome and we've done that with every back we've had since.

Jerome was one of a kind.

Fully dressed for a game, I'd bet that Jerome actually measured almost four feet from shoulder pad to shoulder pad AND he had extremely powerful legs.
His running style was shoulder down, hit a gap (it didn't have to be a hole) and push.

He'd actually spread the guard and the tackle or the guard and the center apart and he's come popping out the other side like a watermelon pit and then tumble forward for three or four yards.
And if he actually hit a hole and could run, he couldn't be tackled. Tackling Jerome was like trying to tackle a Volkswagen Beetle -- there was nothing to grab because everything was so round.
I used to call him a "260 lb. cage ball with legs".

But Parker, Mendy and even Redman and Moore are NOT Jerome and never will be, yet we still try to make them plow through the line like Bettis and they simply aren't built for it.
If we really wanted to replace Bettis, we should have grabbed Mike Tolbert.
Tolbert is Bettis' twin.
He's built the same way, has strong legs and in uniform he looks exactly like Jerome.
In fact, if you put him in Jerome's jersey and sent him onto the field, people would swear that Jerome came out of retirement.

Parker was more suited to a West Coast / off-tackle running game than he EVER would be for an up-the-middle running game and he ended up doing the same thing that Mendy is doing now; waiting for a hole to open up and ultimately getting hammered behind the line.

I don't really care if we stay with "Steeler Football" or go West Coast, but I just wish we'd pick SOMETHING and stay with it.

If we stay with the power running game, then we need a tailback like Bettis and a solid fullback.
If we go West Coast, then we could probably keep the backs we have now, but we'd have to lighten up the O-line a bit and make them more mobile.

All I know is that whatever we have now isn't working, it's just getting a lot of people hurt and that's not good.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

Nice writeup and I agree,somewhat! Its more simple than everyone is making it out to be! The O-lines protection breaks down before any recievers get open= Ben leaving the pocket and adlibbing! Which happens 75% of the time!!! My blame goes to the O-line... If they could cut that percentage down to 40% Ben would be great!
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: Ben’s style? O-line’s Weakness?

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Nice writeup and I agree,somewhat! Its more simple than everyone is making it out to be! The O-lines protection breaks down before any recievers get open= Ben leaving the pocket and adlibbing! Which happens 75% of the time!!! My blame goes to the O-line... If they could cut that percentage down to 40% Ben would be great!
I agree. Its not like he waits in the ''pocket''(if that's what you call what our line giives him) for six or seven seconds before he scrambles, its more like two or three IMO.
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