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Old 09-27-2011, 11:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

Ben's style of play is due to the line, he doesnt just start running around for fun. When the pocket protection is decent he stays in the pocket. The style of offense we have is not short quick passing and this line is so bad that usually a defender is in the backfield in a second or two. Now there are times in the pocket and on the run that he holds on to the ball WAY to long and that is strictly on him, but he doesnt run around just because, his "style" of play is due to the o line.
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:57 AM   #12
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

Good Ben/Bad Ben - it is what it is...

Ben has known nothing but suckage at O-line as long as he's been a Steeler - - he wouldn't know how to act behind a decent line. They keep putting the same stiffs out there at OT and hope for better results in protecting a $100M investment - that's a poor business decision, no matter how you look at it.

The only thing I can blame Ben for is for him saving his pet hamster, Arians', job - -well that and Ben's ginormous swollen ego in covering up for his steaming piles of crap on the line (except Pouncey).

Run Ben Run
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

It's both. Occasionally Ben holds on too long and gets sacked, but when you have an Oline with a rookie tackle, Jonathan Scott, and Doug Legursky, bad things are going to happen regardless.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

Showed a stat on the NFL network earlier. Ben has been sacked more than 60 more times than any other QB since 2006. I for one believe this is the product of #1 a generally inept O-line, #2 Ben holds the ball trying to extend plays, and #3 Arians play calling involves more slower developing plays and less options to dump off for quick gains and efficient runs.

I think the offense should use Bens ability out of the pocket and design more roll outs. More running similar to what I have seen so far will result in 2nd and long and 3rd and long. We need to run better, not just more often. If a fullback is needed than lets hope the coaches see that. IMO the line needs some time to jell and work better as a unit so we can control the line. If we cannot at least reach the level of last years squad then it will truly be a long year.
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

It's no coincidence that Ben and Cutler are two of the most sacked QBs in the league. Arians and Martz are twins. They both call these LONG developing pays that involve the QB needing 5-7 seconds to find an open receiver running a fly route up the sideline. This results in the QB's protection breaking down because of poor O line play. The Bears' and Steelers' O lines are without a doubt the two worst in the league. I feel sorry for Cutler because he doesn't have the physical skills to escape the pressure like Ben.

Arians and Ben must figure out that these long routes to speed receivers can't work every time. They need to start hitting receivers on quick slants and get the running game going to keep the defenses honest. If the O line doesn't improve then adjustments need to be made to the offensive scheme. The status quo will simply not work against good defenses.
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:01 PM   #16
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

Actually u r all forgetting that BA's insistence on long passing routes which take minutes to actually develop also play a part in our problems. Case in pt, in Indy we would run for a loss, try to go deep and either throw it away or get sacked, then go with a short 10-12 yd quick pass for a first down. Obviously the short passing game worked, look at out 3rd down conversions all game long. If we do more of that, our Oline wont have to maintin the blocks for so long, ben wont have to buy as much time while the receivers a breaking out of their 50yd curls. So we have the trifecta of not working working against us.
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloppbeast View Post
I couldn't disagree with you more.

A quarterback needs diagnose the defense immediatlly and find the right receiver extremely quickly in a west coast system. I rarely even see Ben go through his progressions.

Ten pump fakes and indecision doesn't cut it in a west coast offense.
And I beg to differ beyond that-- a West Coast offense is based on short, timed routes and very little "reading" of the defense. It involves creating mismatches by spreading a defense out and forcing LBers to cover speedier and taller TEs or slot WRs.

A vertical pasing game like the one we TRY to run requires more decision making on the part of the QB-- he can't just throw the ball to a spot after a 2 step drop and know the WR will there executing the hook on his pattern at the right time. He needs to be cognizant of where his WRs are, and what zones the defense is playing, oftentimes 30 yards downfield from where he stands and with a 1 second transit time on the ball.

The reason we use the pump-fakes is to freeze the defense and allow guys like Mike Wallace a split second to separate from a hesitating defender, NOT because Ben doesn't know who to throw it to or whatever you are trying to say.

I guess this makes me a "Ben apologeticist" or whatever, but I just don't see much accuracy in what you say. The few historic instances when Ben actually had descent protection, he lit up the other teams (2004, 2005, 2007, 2009-- and I use the terms "descent protection" pretty lightly here-- he was sacked 46 times in 2007 when he finished 2nd behind Brady in passing TDs with 32).

And what it comes down to:

Ben would have a LOT more success playing in the Patriot's/Colt's offense, than Brady/Manning would have playing in our offense, behind our Oline.

Folks like you get to say all the time that a better pocket passer who doesn't hold the ball for as long, would get sacked less and our offense would be more "efficient". Oh yeah? I know of a couple other pocket passers that had a pretty thin time behind our Oline.... Leftwich has not survived through week 2 of the preseason behind our Oline since 2008-- he has gotten knocked out for the year twice now before the season even started. Dixon survived for 2 games behind our Oline before his year was ended on IR. Batch got his wrist broken on the very first play from scrimmage in 2009 and barely survived until week 5 (starting from week 3) of last year when Ben came back from his suspension.

If the Oline cannot even give the QB enough time to hand-off the ball or throw a freaking screen pass, you cannot blame the QB or RBs much for a stymied/inconsistent offense....our offense can only go as far as the Oline can block.
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Last edited by Riddle_Of_Steel; 09-27-2011 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer View Post
Good Ben/Bad Ben - it is what it is...

Ben has known nothing but suckage at O-line as long as he's been a Steeler - - he wouldn't know how to act behind a decent line. They keep putting the same stiffs out there at OT and hope for better results in protecting a $100M investment - that's a poor business decision, no matter how you look at it.

The only thing I can blame Ben for is for him saving his pet hamster, Arians', job - -well that and Ben's ginormous swollen ego in covering up for his steaming piles of crap on the line (except Pouncey).

Run Ben Run
Your posts are entertaining, if nothing else. That one almost made me spit out my dinner on my keyboard....was pretty much spot-on.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:09 AM   #19
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddle_Of_Steel View Post
And I beg to differ beyond that-- a West Coast offense is based on short, timed routes and very little "reading" of the defense. It involves creating mismatches by spreading a defense out and forcing LBers to cover speedier and taller TEs or slot WRs.
It may involve creating mismatches, but why does that lessen the necessity of reading a defense? That's just smart offense.

In any event, I didn't necessarilly mean read the defense before the snap. All quarterbacks should do this, no matter their offense scheme. Most defense are pretty good at disquising. So, reading a defense is absolutely not a science; no quarterback is correct every time.

But the west coast offense requires a quarterback to diagnose a defense after the snap and make a decision very quickly. Much more quickly than a Bruce Arians or Mike Martz type of offense. In the latter offense, the WRs run longer, slower developing routes. With 5 and 7 step drops, the quarterback has more time to see if what the defense does after the snap.


Quote:
The reason we use the pump-fakes is to freeze the defense and allow guys like Mike Wallace a split second to separate from a hesitating defender, NOT because Ben doesn't know who to throw it to or whatever you are trying to say.
Sometimes he uses pump fakes in such a manor, and it works occassionally. I refuse to believe this is the only reason he pump fakes, though. The vast majority of his pump fakes come from indecision.

Quote:
The few historic instances when Ben actually had descent protection, he lit up the other teams (2004, 2005, 2007, 2009-- and I use the terms "descent protection" pretty lightly here-- he was sacked 46 times in 2007 when he finished 2nd behind Brady in passing TDs with 32).
First of all, you do recognize more goes into taking sacks than just the offensive line. To compare offensive lines by sacks doesn't account for the QBs input. Ben would take sacks no matter what system he played it.

Secondly, outisde of maybe 2007 Ben has never lit up the league, unless you use the term "lit up" more liberally than me.

Quote:
Ben would have a LOT more success playing in the Patriot's/Colt's offense, than Brady/Manning would have playing in our offense, behind our Oline.
We can agree to disagree in this regard, but I do question the logic you laid out. I'm sure you have other reasons, but your explanation is lacking.

Your basic argument: since Batch (who was run out of Detroit in favor of Joey Harrington), Leftwhich (who was run out of Jacksonville in favor of David Gerrard), and Dixon takes sacks and can't succeed as well as Ben in the Steelers system, this basically means Tom Brady or Peyton Manning couldn't.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: Benís style? O-lineís Weakness?

This is where I'd like to see some "tale of the tape" and by that I mean taking similar plays by Brady/Manning and putting them up against a similar play by Roethlisberger and seeing where they are different in

1. Reading the defense before snap
2. Reading defense post snap (progressions, pump fakes, etc)
3. Protection
4. Timing and delivery mechanics

Obviously they would have to take a play that is a bread and butter play or one that is used often against a similar look by the defense. That would be some awesome/pain-staking research but would possibly provide some insight. It would not only dissect the QB, but the blocking assignments and route running in general. This would give us a better picture of where these offenses thrive, struggle, and possibly clear the air for QB comparisons sake.

Now, all that said - IMHO - Brady would not be able to make the same unorthodox plays Ben makes when the play breaks down. When receivers are covered, receivers are covered and Brady all of a sudden is very pedestrian against pressure where Ben tends to thrive when flushed. Yes - it is completely different way of approaching the game. They have the speed, timing, and precision and where everything hinges on near-perfect execution and we tend to have more improv plays.
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