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Old 12-12-2011, 09:48 PM   #41
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

One of my issues is...the hit was clearly not intentional (even thought it ended up being a helmet-to-helmet)...it was "bang-bang".
But since the media is clamoring for a suspension (you'd think the media would NOT be jumping all over this as no one wants the new brand of sissified football, thats very clear...), he's no doubt going to get one. My guess is one game and 100K fine. The league has been caving to almost all media outcrys this year and last.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:49 PM   #42
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

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you may be correct, but something tells me that you can't . . . surely a QB has more protection that a runner, but will and should be deemed a runner once he starts to "run" with the ball . . . however, when he goes back to being a QB he should get his protection back . . . and I do think that the refs will give the players some leeway if the players do not have time to react in time if a QB runs and "looks" like he is going to run and then throws the ball . . . but if the the guy is behind the line of scrimmage and he is the QB in name, you run the risk if you take a run at him . . .

in this particular case McCoy did start to run foward but then runs parallel to the line of scrimmage and Harrison made contact, and to me, whether he could react or not in time to a "runner", he was none the less running towards the QB, who was still behind the LOS, and thus could throw the ball, and in that case there is really no need to try to smoke the the guy with the crown of the helmit to the facemask . . . he could of easily came foward put his helmit off center and make a monster tackle just as easily . . . shoulder right into McCloy's chest and landed to the side with McCoy . . .

there are certain times when it is obvious that unnecessary force (and in this case I believe illegal force) is used . . . it is kind of like our Vince Wilfolk, who on many occasions does not mind getting a cheap shot it, hit a Washington Redskin this past Sunday . . . it was a screen pass the the guy slipped, fell to the ground, and clearly was not going to be able to get up by the time Wilfolk got to him, and instead of mearly touching him down with two hands (as 90% of the NFL does), Wilfork (who was behind the player on the ground) came up behind and hit him really hard in the middle part of his back . . . it is "techically" a legal hit but unnecessary and correctly drew a 15 yard flag for unnecessary roughness . . .

my two cents . . .
A QB that "looks" like is is running but then throws the ball ALWAYS has to be behind the line of scrimmage...otherwise he can't throw the ball...
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

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Actually, Lewis made a helmet-to-helmet hit this year in the 1st Steeler-Ravens game and wasn't even flagged for it. I couldn't believe it (OK, yes, maybe i do believe it...)
I assume you are referring to a the hit on Ward?

The difference between the two is that Lewis is trying to and in the process of making a tackle on Ward and there is incidental contact with the helmits, the KEY difference is that Lewis has his arms out and in the process of wrapping up Ward with is arms when the helmit contact was made . . .

there is a difference when the lead portion of the "tackle" is with the helmit as opposed to the arms . . . just as there is a difference between touching a guy down and ramming into his back (see my Wilfork comments in the eariler post)
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:52 PM   #44
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

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One of my issues is...the hit was clearly not intentional (even thought it ended up being a helmet-to-helmet)...it was "bang-bang".
But since the media is clamoring for a suspension (you'd think the media would NOT be jumping all over this as no one wants the new brand of sissified football, thats very clear...), he's no doubt going to get one. My guess is one game and 100K fine. The league has been caving to almost all media outcrys this year and last.
I think the people who are begging for a suspension and the ones who are looking to get in better with the NFL. There's something in it for themselves so they sell out. I sure don't remember any of these idiots insisting on suspending anyone else who's had helmet to helmet hits this year.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

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I assume you are referring to a the hit on Ward?

The difference between the two is that Lewis is trying to and in the process of making a tackle on Ward and there is incidental contact with the helmits, the KEY difference is that Lewis has his arms out and in the process of wrapping up Ward with is arms when the helmit contact was made . . .

there is a difference when the lead portion of the "tackle" is with the helmit as opposed to the arms . . . just as there is a difference between touching a guy down and ramming into his back (see my Wilfork comments in the eariler post)
Really? that's not what I see at all:

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Old 12-12-2011, 09:55 PM   #46
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

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A QB that "looks" like is is running but then throws the ball ALWAYS has to be behind the line of scrimmage...otherwise he can't throw the ball...
exactly, and that is the point . . . when the QB is behind the LOS and runs there is risk that he might still pass the ball and thus be deemed a QB, and a defender needs to be on the look out for this and willing to accept the ruling of the QB is later deemed to be a QB, it best to be save to think of him as a QB till he crosses the LOS. . .

once he crosses the LOS and can't throw the ball and thus can not possible be deemed a QB, he can only be a runner and one can have more of a free reign with his tackles. . .
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:01 PM   #47
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

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exactly, and that is the point . . . when the QB is behind the LOS and runs there is risk that he might still pass the ball and thus be deemed a QB, and a defender needs to be on the look out for this and willing to accept the ruling of the QB is later deemed to be a QB, it best to be save to think of him as a QB till he crosses the LOS. . .

once he crosses the LOS and can't throw the ball and thus can not possible be deemed a QB, he can only be a runner and one can have more of a free reign with his tackles. . .
I guess I didn't understand this part of your statement then:
"and I do think that the refs will give the players some leeway if the players do not have time to react in time if a QB runs and "looks" like he is going to run and then throws the ball"

Why would the refs be giving leeway if the defense has to wait till the QB crosses the LOS? I would assume that they would be giving leeway to a player hitting the QB who takes off running behind the LOS and then throws the ball at the last second...oh wait, they DON'T give leeway, at least not to the STEELERS
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:01 PM   #48
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

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Really? that's not what I see at all:

at the 06/07 portion of the video Lewis has his arms out and in an arc getting ready to close on Ward . . . is there something that I am not seeing . . .

whereas Harrison's arms are down by his side and come up straight and at McCoy's chest, the video below at 1:00-1:05 shows it best . . .



Boomer for me I see a difference when a player leads with the helmit and not in combination with the arms . . . it kind of like when a DB launches at a players and becomes like a missile - arms down by the side and head first . . .which for me is a different then a player approaching a players lowers the head and arms outstretched like a claws of a crab . . . which is what I see Ray Lewis doing . . .
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:04 PM   #49
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

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at the 06/07 portion of the video Lewis has his arms out and in an arc getting ready to close on Ward . . . is there something that I am not seeing . . .

whereas Harrison's arms are down by his side and come up straight and at McCoy's chest, the video below at 1:00-1:05 shows it best . . .



Boomer for me I see a difference when a player leads with the helmit and not in combination with the arms . . . it kind of like when a DB launches at a players and becomes like a missile - arms down by the side and head first . . .which for me is a different then a player approaching a players lowers the head and arms outstretched like a claws of a crab . . . which is what I see Ray Lewis doing . . .
Lewis lowers his head and hits Hines in the helmet. Oh sure he half way tries to reach for him but his arms never even touch Hines at all. But his helmet sure does. Look, I'm OK with hits like that. But the NFL should be fair about it, and they are not. Not even close.
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:09 PM   #50
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Default Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?

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I guess I didn't understand this part of your statement then:
"and I do think that the refs will give the players some leeway if the players do not have time to react in time if a QB runs and "looks" like he is going to run and then throws the ball"

Why would the refs be giving leeway if the defense has to wait till the QB crosses the LOS? I would assume that they would be giving leeway to a player hitting the QB who takes off running behind the LOS and then throws the ball at the last second...oh wait, they DON'T give leeway, at least not to the STEELERS
for example if the QB is running and husling towards the sideline to get out of bounds to avoid a sack (and was behind the LOS) and the defender is chasing him and at the last minute turns and tries to make a throw . . . or if the play is 3rd and 1 and the QB does a boot leg and is making a run to the sideline to make the first down and a defender is chasing him/approaching him and an inch before crossing the LOS he throws the ball and then gets hit . . .I can see the refs having some sympathy for the defender, but McCoy was not on a nake bootleg on 3rd and 1.

but when the QB is runnning paralel to the LOS his is still in the process (and mind set) to throw . . .

Sadly, I think Vick falls under the catagory that refs think is more a runner than a passer and does not get the calls that other QBs would get . . .

its late here and time for me to sign off, i'll check in tomorrow . . .
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