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Old 04-30-2014, 07:03 PM   #21
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
I think you point this out to somehow discredit Vince Williams as a player, but not sure.

The Steelers Hall of Fame Defensive Coordinator decided in some situations to use a future Hall of Fame Defensive player in Polamalu, instead of a rookie 6th round ILB or a Free Agent ILB. It makes sense to me in some cases.

Vince Williams is a quality football player and he is going to be much improved since the game has slowed down for him this year.
No, my knock on the way we use our Linebackers is on LeBeau, not Williams. That same Hall of Fame DC and S also contributed to one of the worst seasons on defense we've had in a long time. But this is another issue onto itself.

I'm a big fan of his. I think he can be a solid player on our team, but depending on where the chips fall and where we are at 15, Mosley is going to be on the board. When you can go from solid to potentially great, how do you not make that move?
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:05 PM   #22
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

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When you can go from solid to potentially great, how do you not make that move?
Because, Dennard is there...
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:13 PM   #23
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

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Their faith in Williams is why I don't think we'll take Mosley.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

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No, my knock on the way we use our Linebackers is on LeBeau, not Williams. That same Hall of Fame DC and S also contributed to one of the worst seasons on defense we've had in a long time. But this is another issue onto itself.

I'm a big fan of his. I think he can be a solid player on our team, but depending on where the chips fall and where we are at 15, Mosley is going to be on the board. When you can go from solid to potentially great, how do you not make that move?
So you are putting the defensive issues on Lebeau and Polamalu?? Ouch.

I look at it as getting old, slow and missing out on many draft picks. That left McLendon, Hood, Larry Foote, Jarvis Jones, Will Gay as having to start, while Ike, Ryan Clark and Troy got older. Time to restock the cupboard and this draft needs it too.

As for Mosely, I was listening to ESPN radio today and the names of Rolando McLain, Mark Ingram, Trent Richardson, etc were coming up as Alabama draft busts. Donta Hightower thinks Mosely might be overrated. I say we have bigger needs than ILB.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

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So you are putting the defensive issues on Lebeau and Polamalu?? Ouch.

I look at it as getting old, slow and missing out on many draft picks. That left McLendon, Hood, Larry Foote, Jarvis Jones, Will Gay as having to start, while Ike, Ryan Clark and Troy got older. Time to restock the cupboard and this draft needs it too.

As for Mosely, I was listening to ESPN radio today and the names of Rolando McLain, Mark Ingram, Trent Richardson, etc were coming up as Alabama draft busts. Donta Hightower thinks Mosely might be overrated. I say we have bigger needs than ILB.
ILB isn't our biggest need. In fact, it might be far from it. I'm only ok with taking Mosley if all of the top DBs are off the board, and even in that scenario Ra'Shede makes more sense. That being said, I've been advocating for Mosley now for two years. He's going to be a special player in the NFL with that sideline-to-sideline quickness and uncanny talent in the passing and running game. We're going to regret passing on him.

Do I put all of the defensive issues on Troy and Dick? Of course not, but they each had a big hand in why our defense was where it was last season. Not adjusting the scheme to fit the players and instead asking them to play the same roles as when we had All Pro talent loaded up front was... yikes.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:56 PM   #26
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

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Because, Dennard is there...
You mean Evans. Or Benjamin.

Don't do this to me, teeg.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:29 AM   #27
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

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ILB isn't our biggest need. In fact, it might be far from it. I'm only ok with taking Mosley if all of the top DBs are off the board, and even in that scenario Ra'Shede makes more sense. That being said, I've been advocating for Mosley now for two years. He's going to be a special player in the NFL with that sideline-to-sideline quickness and uncanny talent in the passing and running game. We're going to regret passing on him.

Do I put all of the defensive issues on Troy and Dick? Of course not, but they each had a big hand in why our defense was where it was last season. Not adjusting the scheme to fit the players and instead asking them to play the same roles as when we had All Pro talent loaded up front was... yikes.
I dont think "adjusting the scheme to fit the players" is something that you do when the organization drafts and acquires players to fit their scheme. You draft players to fit your defensive scheme, if they dont develop or injuries occur, etc. you try and make lemonade from lemons.

The defense wasnt horrible, but its below the norm and I attribute that to 2 main things.
1. No real pass rush.- Poor drafting and injuries left the Steelers with their 2 primary OLB's being rookie Jarvis Jones and a guy that hasnt lived up to the draft status (Worilds).

2. Weak run defense up the middle- Not having a succession plan for James Farrior and Casey Hampton left the team with mediocre talent up the middle in Foote and McLendon. When Foote went down they had to rely on inexperienced rookies.

I think the Steelers are better now with hopefully McLendon playing better this year, Vince Williams 2nd year and Moats as depth, plus some other help. In the pass rush, I still dont see much unless Jarvis Jones can learn from Joey Porter how to use his hands better in the pass rush. Its why I think the Steelers still are in need of an OLB in this draft with a top 3 round pick.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:47 AM   #28
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

so to have a top 10 defense, all the coaches gotta do is change the scheme to fit the "talent" of the players???

thats sounds so easy!

i wonder why 22 coaching staffs dont do that?

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Rolando McLain, ... Donta Hightower thinks Mosely might be overrated.
*shudders*

possibly 2 of the most overhyped steelers potential draft picks in recent years. fans absolutely creamed their jeans over these guys, and it was only exasperated when they wound up with hated rivals like the patriots.

i like the potential of spence and williams.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

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I dont think "adjusting the scheme to fit the players" is something that you do when the organization drafts and acquires players to fit their scheme. You draft players to fit your defensive scheme, if they dont develop or injuries occur, etc. you try and make lemonade from lemons.

The defense wasnt horrible, but its below the norm and I attribute that to 2 main things.
1. No real pass rush.- Poor drafting and injuries left the Steelers with their 2 primary OLB's being rookie Jarvis Jones and a guy that hasnt lived up to the draft status (Worilds).

2. Weak run defense up the middle- Not having a succession plan for James Farrior and Casey Hampton left the team with mediocre talent up the middle in Foote and McLendon. When Foote went down they had to rely on inexperienced rookies.

I think the Steelers are better now with hopefully McLendon playing better this year, Vince Williams 2nd year and Moats as depth, plus some other help. In the pass rush, I still dont see much unless Jarvis Jones can learn from Joey Porter how to use his hands better in the pass rush. Its why I think the Steelers still are in need of an OLB in this draft with a top 3 round pick.
And that's a dated line of thinking. I'll give LeBeau credit where it's due - he allowed Heyward to play more of a one-gap role in our Eagle look which played to his strengths. That move, albeit about 4 - 5 games late at that point, was the correct one.

I don't know if we drafted Heyward to fit our scheme or not, but at this point it's absolutely irrelevant. When he plays adequately in a two-gap role but excels in that one-gap role, why would we try to make a square peg fit into a round hole? The same argument could be made for Jarvis. When we drop our OLBs into coverage over 33% of the time on passing downs (the highest in the NFL by a substantial margin) and then bitch about our lack of pass rush, isn't the answer to this question very simple? We put Jarvis Jones, a rookie who struggled in coverage on Gronkowski in the Patriots game. They scored on the play. It seems like a captain going down with his ship.

The defense wasn't horrible, but was it up to standards? Clearly not. Troy playing Linebacker, the inability (or unwillingness) to adapt our scheme to fit the talent, the leaky run defense and terrible secondary play, inability to generate turnovers and questionable coordinating and playcalling needs to fall on someone. For many, it's Tomlin as LeBeau can do no wrong.

People will crucify McLendon for his inability to stop the run up the middle (which isn't backed by statistics, mind you, as he allowed just over 2 YPC when playing Nose) will give Troy a pass for playing Linebacker laughably bad because he's Troy. Like LeBeau, he can do no wrong.

There are holes in our defense right now. Whether or not you want to pin that on the players or LeBeau, something has to be fixed. I very much doubt it's a personnel issue, and even if it is, why are we scheming around our talent as if we have the '08 defense? Why have we not adjusted our scheme to fit the talent? I get that we drafted our talent to fit our scheme, but it isn't working. When it isn't working, adjustments have to be made. Does that mean fresh faces on defense? Maybe, maybe not, but we don't have Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton and Brett Keisel in their primes anymore. We don't have Harrison and (a leaned out) Woodley playing the edge any longer. We don't have Farrior playing inside alongside Timmons. Maybe we stop pretending we do.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:51 PM   #30
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Default Re: Vince Williams: ‘I can focus on my craft and get better’

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And that's a dated line of thinking. I'll give LeBeau credit where it's due - he allowed Heyward to play more of a one-gap role in our Eagle look which played to his strengths. That move, albeit about 4 - 5 games late at that point, was the correct one.

I don't know if we drafted Heyward to fit our scheme or not, but at this point it's absolutely irrelevant. When he plays adequately in a two-gap role but excels in that one-gap role, why would we try to make a square peg fit into a round hole? The same argument could be made for Jarvis. When we drop our OLBs into coverage over 33% of the time on passing downs (the highest in the NFL by a substantial margin) and then bitch about our lack of pass rush, isn't the answer to this question very simple? We put Jarvis Jones, a rookie who struggled in coverage on Gronkowski in the Patriots game. They scored on the play. It seems like a captain going down with his ship.

The defense wasn't horrible, but was it up to standards? Clearly not. Troy playing Linebacker, the inability (or unwillingness) to adapt our scheme to fit the talent, the leaky run defense and terrible secondary play, inability to generate turnovers and questionable coordinating and playcalling needs to fall on someone. For many, it's Tomlin as LeBeau can do no wrong.

People will crucify McLendon for his inability to stop the run up the middle (which isn't backed by statistics, mind you, as he allowed just over 2 YPC when playing Nose) will give Troy a pass for playing Linebacker laughably bad because he's Troy. Like LeBeau, he can do no wrong.

There are holes in our defense right now. Whether or not you want to pin that on the players or LeBeau, something has to be fixed. I very much doubt it's a personnel issue, and even if it is, why are we scheming around our talent as if we have the '08 defense? Why have we not adjusted our scheme to fit the talent? I get that we drafted our talent to fit our scheme, but it isn't working. When it isn't working, adjustments have to be made. Does that mean fresh faces on defense? Maybe, maybe not, but we don't have Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton and Brett Keisel in their primes anymore. We don't have Harrison and (a leaned out) Woodley playing the edge any longer. We don't have Farrior playing inside alongside Timmons. Maybe we stop pretending we do.
-Yes, Heyward was drafted to be a 5-technique in the Steelers defense.

-McLendon wasnt very good at doing his job in the 3-4 as a run defender. He didnt take on 2 defenders and anchor like is needed. You can point to statistics, but you remember the Brian Burke quote...."Statistics are like a lamppost for a drunk. Useful for support, but not for illumination."

Yes you can say there are holes in the defense right now and why would it not be a personell issue? Up front is inexperienced and only Heyward is a star. 2nd level Timmons is a top ILB, Jones is young, Worilds is a high priced Mirage that is impersonating a top OLB and we dont know if Williams, Garvin, Moats, will be the other ILB. On the back end Taylor and Polamalu are almost retired, Gay is substandard, there is optimism that Allen, Thomas, Mitchell will be the answer.

When you coach for over 30 years in the NFL and you know your system works, have proven your system works, why would you "adapt the scheme to fit the talent"??

Most of the players on the Steelers defense last year were just not good enough to beat the guy across from them. Hopefully McLendon, Jones, Allen, Thomas, Mitchell, Williams, Worilds get better. Hopefully the positions of Hood, Clark, Gay, Taylor, Williams get better players in them going forward.
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