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Old 02-05-2007, 02:58 PM   #1
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Default Weak Hall of Fame Class

I'm really having a hard time accepting Thomas, Irvin, and Sanders as HOF worthy. I know a lot of it is my bias in favor of the Steelers still left out (mainly Greenwood and Shell)Thomas choked in all of the SBs except the first one, Irvin should have been kicked out of the league on 2 occasions and Sanders is one of about 20 receivers with similiar stats...

I don't have a problem with Mathews - the guy was a stud for so many years and Werli was pretty good (not nearly as good as Shell) - I don't know - being a huge fan of the NFL, it's hard for me every year when they announce the new inductees...
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Old 02-05-2007, 03:13 PM   #2
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Default Re: Weak Hall of Fame Class

I would like to see L.C. get in, but since it is not the Hall Of Every Very Good Player that won Super Bowls I have no problem with any of the three selections you cite.

MIchael Irvin is a jerk, but he had both the stats and was the leader of a team that won 3 SBs. If you can stay in the Hall after cutting your ex-wife's throat I think it is hard to exclude anyone for off the field conduct.

As for Sanders, if you base it on stats a lot of HOF inductees are questionable, most notably Swann, while someone like Art Monk is excluded. I am old enough to remember Sanders, who along with Mackey redefined the TE positioin in the late 60s, as a star from his time.

As for Thomas, getting to 4 SBs counts for something and, as I think Peter King said, Thomas was Marshall Faulk before there was Marshall Faulk.

I bleed Black & Gold, but if you look at such criteria as Pro Bowl or All-Pro designations, it is difficult to support the induction of L.C. and (more so) Shell over others (e.g. - Kuechenberg) who have not made it in from that era. Maybe they suffered because there were only so many All-Pro slots left for Steeler defenders after players such as Ham, Lambert, and Greene got their seemingly annual slots, but you can be HOF worthy without being on a team that won it all if you were consistently regarded as among the best at your position.
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Old 02-05-2007, 03:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Weak Hall of Fame Class

Thurman Thomas is worthy of the HOF. I lived in upstate NY during a good part of his career. I always liked to watch him play.
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Old 02-05-2007, 03:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: Weak Hall of Fame Class

I think Thomas is worthy, but I too would have liked to see L.C. get in.

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Old 02-05-2007, 03:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: Weak Hall of Fame Class

I think the NFL has a policy against Steelers getting in to the Hall as of late. If they allow to many in, they'll have to build a separate building just for them. And they don't want all the fans going to that one building instead of seeing the entire thing!
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Old 02-05-2007, 03:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Weak Hall of Fame Class

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I think the NFL has a policy against Steelers getting in to the Hall as of late. If they allow to many in, they'll have to build a separate building just for them. And they don't want all the fans going to that one building instead of seeing the entire thing!
Hmm...there might be some truth to that...

Anyway, I cannot believe Irvin got voted in....I just shook my head and thought to myself "Un-friggin-believable."
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Old 02-05-2007, 03:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: Weak Hall of Fame Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta Dan View Post
I would like to see L.C. get in, but since it is not the Hall Of Every Very Good Player that won Super Bowls I have no problem with any of the three selections you cite.

MIchael Irvin is a jerk, but he had both the stats and was the leader of a team that won 3 SBs. If you can stay in the Hall after cutting your ex-wife's throat I think it is hard to exclude anyone for off the field conduct.

As for Sanders, if you base it on stats a lot of HOF inductees are questionable, most notably Swann, while someone like Art Monk is excluded. I am old enough to remember Sanders, who along with Mackey redefined the TE positioin in the late 60s, as a star from his time.

As for Thomas, getting to 4 SBs counts for something and, as I think Peter King said, Thomas was Marshall Faulk before there was Marshall Faulk.

I bleed Black & Gold, but if you look at such criteria as Pro Bowl or All-Pro designations, it is difficult to support the induction of L.C. and (more so) Shell over others (e.g. - Kuechenberg) who have not made it in from that era. Maybe they suffered because there were only so many All-Pro slots left for Steeler defenders after players such as Ham, Lambert, and Greene got their seemingly annual slots, but you can be HOF worthy without being on a team that won it all if you were consistently regarded as among the best at your position.
I'm not basing what I posted on stats - Thomas had the stats, but he choked in some big games - Irvin was protected big time for crimes he committed while he was playing - the guy is lucky he didn't serve time -- obviously greatness is subjective - IMHO, Swann, Stallworth, Namath, Sayers, etc belong in the HOF for a lot of reasons - I could write a book - even though their stats are average...I agree, consistency over time is huge - that's why I think LC and Shell deserve to be in the HOF...and I don't necessarily "have a problem" with the players I cited - they were good - I just don't think they are HOF good.

Another point I think that is worth mentioning - playing good/winning in SBs - fair or unfair has been a big factor in making decisions in the past - if you are a consistent pro bowler and you play well in big games then IMO, you should be a strong candidate - see Cowboys of the 70s - the Steelers are responsible for keeping a lot of their players out and most of them did play well in the SBs against the Steelers - just not good enough to win the games...
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Old 02-05-2007, 04:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: Weak Hall of Fame Class

As a prior post noted, I think there is 70s Steelers fatigue with the HOF voters. As was stated on the America's Game program for the 78 Steelers, 9 of the 22 starters on that team are in the HOF, which I think is more than any other team ever (anyone have a head count on the 60s Packers in the HOF?)

Given that the offense was among the best of its time but the defense was the best of all time, it is somewhat hard to figure how the offense got 5 of the 9 slots. I think LC and Shell had as good a claim as Swann and Stallworth but that those two got in on both the general bias in favor of inducting impact players on offense and being linked with the brand name "Swann & Stallworth."

L.C. may get in as a veteran's committee pick some year like the Browns guard did this year, but I think any 70s Steelers on the outside of the HOF looking in are caught up in a numbers game.

As for Irvin, the exclusion of players based on outside activities is a slippery slope unless players are going to need to be polygraphed on whether they committed a list of "bannable" activities prior to being considered for induction.
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Old 02-05-2007, 04:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: Weak Hall of Fame Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta Dan View Post
As a prior post noted, I think there is 70s Steelers fatigue with the HOF voters. As was stated on the America's Game program for the 78 Steelers, 9 of the 22 starters on that team are in the HOF, which I think is more than any other team ever (anyone have a head count on the 60s Packers in the HOF?)

Given that the offense was among the best of its time but the defense was the best of all time, it is somewhat hard to figure how the offense got 5 of the 9 slots. I think LC and Shell had as good a claim as Swann and Stallworth but that those two got in on both the general bias in favor of inducting impact players on offense and being linked with the brand name "Swann & Stallworth."

L.C. may get in as a veteran's committee pick some year like the Browns guard did this year, but I think any 70s Steelers on the outside of the HOF looking in are caught up in a numbers game.

As for Irvin, the exclusion of players based on outside activities is a slippery slope unless players are going to need to be polygraphed on whether they committed a list of "bannable" activities prior to being considered for induction.
I agree with you on the Steeler fatigue thing, however I think it's unfortunate - Shell was a stud for several years beyond the SB teams of the 70s - I don't agree on Irvin - the stuff that came out after his first arrest was inexcusable by any standards - the guy basically ran a combination crack-***** house for the Cowboys players during the Switzer years...Bob Hayes has been held out of the HOF for far less - like I said earlier, the guy was protected big time ...requiring players to refrain from running ***** houses during their football career is not a slippery slope...the guy made the Bengals look like choir boys.
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Old 02-05-2007, 05:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Weak Hall of Fame Class

I think what may be helping Irvin on the "lifestyle" issues is that the sportswriters know a lot of stuff that goes on with the players that never makes the police blotter or the news.

If someone started to point out Irvin's transgressions, there may have been a "then why is [fill in the blank] admitted?"

A lot of great athletes are 4 star jerks off the field - I believe those kind of activities will keep your marginal player out and delay the induction of others, but even if you limit it to activities while playing then with Lawrence Taylor in (an all time great, but if you exclude based on lifestyle it is hard to justify LT's admission) who can you keep out?
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