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Old 06-04-2007, 08:35 PM   #201
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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Originally Posted by Mosca View Post
Churchill is impeached by his own history, not by any spin. Go look it up. I did. His was a career of many big mistakes, many minor mistakes, many minor victories, and one huge victory. The mistakes don't discredit the victories, the victories doesn't erase the mistakes. Both are true. It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative, and everything to do with seeing the entire picture.

I wasn't the one who trotted Churchill out as a beacon of sanity in this discussion. If someone wants to do that, he had better know who it is he is bringing out. Everything I wrote is 100% on the record, not some swift-boat hearsay nonsense. When someone brings out a man to quote, he is saying, "I stand with this man." All I'm answering is, OK. You are standing by the man who advocated gassing the Kurds, who sent troops against his own countrymen, and would have machine gunned striking workers if the government had let him.



Tom
Boy, this got all discombobulated. I didn't know people would be so touchy on this subject, but since it's been brought up, I should respond, especially for any people who might just go along for the ride without any facts being represented.

As for Churchill, I DID "look it up", mostly a long time ago, but some refreshing just now. I think he was pretty much a successful guy. He won a Nobel Prize for literature. He was knighted. He was pretty talented, was even a pretty decent painter. He was a champion fencer. He was almost without question the greatest orator of the 20th Century.

His political career was pretty impressive. He reformed the English prison system. He modernized the English Navy before WW1. He returned GB to the gold standard in 1925. He came to power for having great foresight, along the way urging rearmament and refuting Chamberlain's policy of constant capitulation (which mirrors some things we see today, incidentally). He was instrumental in the Lend/Lease program. I could go on and on and on.

Addressing the gassing and labor uprisings, unfortunately, the World was a far different and harsher place in the early 20th century. Gassing people was perfectly acceptable as there was no prohibition against it at the time, and there were tons of violent disputes between the government and labor in a lot of different Countries around that time. He was a creature of his era, no doubt, but using that against him is a bit revisionist. Fortunately and correctly, history ultimately speaks very highly of Winston Churchill, so it was perfectly appropriate to quote him.

And Conservative versus Liberal DOES matter. Churchill was initially an avowed liberal, and became a staunch conservative. His greatest achievements occurred while he was the latter, which probably grates a bit, I suppose.
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:08 PM   #202
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

Thank goodness someone looked it up and gave a rebuttal.

Churchill himself referred to his returning England to the Gold Standard as the biggest mistake of his life; it almost destroyed England (deflation and unemployment) and it led to the Great Strikes, which in turn led to the proposal to machine gun striking workers. Keynes wrote a pamphlet (Mr Churchill's Economics) claiming it would lead to world-wide depression (it didn't, that came later).

I'm not touchy on it, I'm enjoying the challenge and throwing challenges back. I appreciate well won points. I am surprised it took this long for someone to defend Churchill. Of course I cherry-picked his career. If the man was only what I wrote he would be excoriated by history as a charlatan!

Still, what I wrote was true as well. No one is all good, or all bad. Especially politicians.

And I'm REALLY surprised LITP didn't chime in.

Point to revefsreleets!


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Old 06-04-2007, 09:18 PM   #203
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

Thanks, I guess. I'm a proponent of the whole World returning to the gold standard (although it's far too late for that now), so I counted that as a positive.

Didn't Abe Lincoln institute fiat greenbacks in lieu of gold in the Civil War? He broke a bunch of "rules" to win, and the Union prevailed. Funny that nobody ever talks about that now...
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:28 PM   #204
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

When I was picking my Churchill points I was wondering if anyone was going to challenge them. The whole story is right out there in the open. It's HISTORY, ferchrissakes.

Check out my pictures in the other thread, the Reading WW2 days. I've been a student of that stuff since I was a kid in the '60s.

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Old 06-04-2007, 10:15 PM   #205
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

No comment, except for:

"Fight them over there.........or fight them here."
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