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Old 04-28-2007, 04:05 AM   #21
lamberts-lost-tooth
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapeCod Steel Head View Post
No, unfortuanetly I don't know where Osama is. But if you give me 421 BILLION dollars which is what this inane war has cost thus far ,not to mention hundreds of thousands of lives, I'm pretty sure I could find him. You say you've found connections between Sadaam and Al-Qaeda? I find that hard to believe considering the C.I.A. couldn't ,and neither did The Senate Committee on Intelligence. Keep on drinking the Kool Aid, and I hope you don't lose any loved ones in this senseless war.
Actually if you read what I wrote..I never said I found connections...I just have taken the time to read the report instead of basing my decisions on 30 second CNN blurps....The senate commitee looking into possible ties did find ties between Al-Qaeda and Sadaam...what they didnt find was connections between Iraqs funding of terrorism and more specifically Iraq involvment in 9-11...the report is on-line and easliy viewable..take a look.
The next day the Washington post confirms this by saying:

Quote:
.....The commission cited reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996, adding, "but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship.....Two senior bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq....But the report of the commission's staff, based on its access to all relevant classified information, said that there had been contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda but no proven cooperation.
and I would add that since the commision closed the report ...there has been other information that has came forth...that shows ties btween the terrorist organization and Iraq...noteably..CBS news reported

Quote:
...Documents recently found in the bombed headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, reveal that an al Qaeda envoy was invited clandestinely to Baghdad in March 1998. The documents reveal that the purpose of the meeting was to establish a relationship between Baghdad and al Qaeda based on their mutual hatred of American and Saudi Arabia.
Perhaps instead of simply insulting anyone who doesnt agree with you ..as "drinking the kool-aid"....a little homework is in order.

I also find it very telling that you chose not to comment on the Democrats who voted for this war based on the same evidence presented to the current administration....the truth is STILL inconvienient.

I will refrain from posting in this thread again because I see no attempt on your part to understand an opposing point of view or have an open discussion about those opinions.

But I do feel stongly to add..as for your statement about hundreds of thousands of lives lost....please refrain in the future from placing the lives of American servicemen and women...into the same category as suicidal bombers and their victims....They deserve better.
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Old 04-28-2007, 09:13 AM   #22
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

Trust me my friend I've done my homework! You chose to believe what you want ,and I'll chose to believe what I want to. As far as the Dems go they based their vote on the info presented to them by the President which was questionable to say the least. As for as the hundreds of thousand of lives lost I was referring to the INNOCENT civilians that have lost their lives as a result of this stupid war! Why are Iraqi civilians better than our servicemen, and women? Do they not value life as much as we do? Our members of the military signed on to possibly give their lives for this country willingly. The same can't be said for the innocent men ,women and children that have died as a result of this conflict. Drink Up!
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Old 04-28-2007, 09:35 AM   #23
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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Originally Posted by CapeCod Steel Head View Post
Trust me my friend I've done my homework! You chose to believe what you want ,and I'll chose to believe what I want to. As far as the Dems go they based their vote on the info presented to them by the President which was questionable to say the least. As for as the hundreds of thousand of lives lost I was referring to the INNOCENT civilians that have lost their lives as a result of this stupid war! Why are Iraqi civilians better than our servicemen, and women? Do they not value life as much as we do? Our members of the military signed on to possibly give their lives for this country willingly. The same can't be said for the innocent men ,women and children that have died as a result of this conflict. Drink Up!
Oh the inaccuracies!!! I can see that you know very little about this situation

1) Since when did President Bush conduct investigations?....the CIA information presented to congress was the same that was presented to Bush

2) The "hundreds of thousands" of innocents...were (and still are) killed primarily by suicide bombers and muslim extremists..sunni vs shiite....and shame on you for putting that on the shoulders of any american..whether it be the President or our soldiers.

3) Soldiers do not sign up to "give their lives"..that is how you lose wars. Soldiers sign up to make the enemy lose theirs...and yes..every American soldiers life is worth more to me. To equate our soldiers lives to that of the enemy or to foreign nationals is a scenerio ussually reserved to those who dont respect the military....

..and you make want to lay off drinking for a bit

Last edited by lamberts-lost-tooth; 04-28-2007 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 04-28-2007, 10:58 AM   #24
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

OK, OK ; what do we do NOW? Forget who caused the mess, and look at what it is and ask how to fix it.

Our brothers and sisters are over there doing the job that we asked them to, without complaining. But it's a job that our armed forces were not designed and trained to do, and it's a fight that is NOT a military fight. A military solution can't straighten this out. Our military did what we trained them to do when they routed the Iraqi army; now we're asking them to occupy the country while various factions fight to fill the Hussein vacuum.

Unless we are willing to go as far as the Nazis and the Japanese did in WW2, with wholesale slaughter of the population to quell insurrection, force won't win. It will only kill people. Us AND them. But it won't win. And it ISN'T winning.

Now what? A permanent occupying force? The status quo? MORE troops? How much money? We won't even bring up the substandard care our wounded brothers and sisters and neighbors are getting when they come home.

Believe it or not, I'm a lot more conservative than you might think. If we could shoot our way out of this, I'd say, "Do it!" What the hell, all our guys are over there with guns already. It should be easy....

I'm not against Republicans. And I'm not anti-conservative. What I'm against is useless squabbling and finger-pointing, and I'm against the madness of following a course that isn't working and being told that it is and will work. If I had a solution, I'd be at the head of the government; but I'm just a scrub with a keyboard, just like you guys are. I want this to end in our favor so bad that if I thought about it too hard I would break down and cry. We need to extricate our valiant people and stop the drain on our resources, and we need to find a political solution.


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Old 04-28-2007, 11:08 AM   #25
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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I think there is a misconception among many people, that those who oppose the war are against winning it.

Speaking for myself, if I thought continuing what we're doing now would win it, I would be behind that 100%. But all I see continuing the present course doing is making it worse; the current course is LOSING.

The situation can't be won militarily. It needs to be won politically, economically, and socially. (Huh. Harry Reid said that. Funny how the "winning" part wasn't picked up on though.)

We're using the wrong tool, and it's disrespectful to the ones who are trying to do it to ask them to keep trying. We're trying to drive screws with a hammer.

But again; that being said, there is no doubt in my mind about the SINCERITY OF BELIEF of Bush and his associates. In fact, I accept their totality of belief as proof of their madness.

Tom



I dissagree Mosca. I don't think the war in the middle east is one that cannot even be won socially with 'sensitive' diplomacy. As there will ALWAYS be some percentage of the population in any and all muslim Nations whom will regard the 'western' way of life and or ideals to be wicked and worthy of being destroyed.

And this percentage will never be oppossed 'truthfully' by the rest of their said peoples. Even though these remaining may not 'actively' take part in actual combat or the cowardly acts of terrorrism against civilians.

Imo,...you wage 'Total War' socially, politically and militarily against your enemies. Or,... you stay out of the affairs of others whom have no regard for your input in the first place. Especially if it profits your Nation nothing in regards to gaining resources and or wealth with which to improve it's own condition and maintain it's present and future glory.


Bottom line,.....if you are not prepared to take the neccessary measures to 'truthfully' be victorious. Don't waste the lives of your warriors, the resources of your Nation and moral of your countrymen simply for the sake of 'bullsh#t' politics,.....that are not profitable. (outside of for a select few 'families' behind the scenes)
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Old 04-28-2007, 11:30 AM   #26
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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Originally Posted by SteelCzar76 View Post
I dissagree Mosca. I don't think the war in the middle east is one that cannot even be won socially with 'sensitive' diplomacy. As there will ALWAYS be some percentage of the population in any and all muslim Nations whom will regard the 'western' way of life and or ideals to be wicked and worthy of being destroyed.

And this percentage will never be oppossed 'truthfully' by the rest of their said peoples. Even though these remaining may not 'actively' take part in actual combat or the cowardly acts of terrorrism against civilians.

Imo,...you wage 'Total War' socially, politically and militarily against your enemies. Or,... you stay out of the affairs of others whom have no regard for your input in the first place. Especially if it profits your Nation nothing in regards to gaining resources and or wealth with which to improve it's own condition and maintain it's present and future glory.


Bottom line,.....if you are not prepared to take the neccessary measures to 'truthfully' be victorious. Don't waste the lives of your warriors, the resources of your Nation and moral of your countrymen simply for the sake of 'bullsh#t' politics,.....that are not profitable. (outside of for a select few 'families' behind the scenes)
I dunno, Steelczar, I think we agree pretty closely. Or at least I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I didn't use the word "sensitive", you put it in there. I think we need some blunt force diplomacy, not delicate negotiations.

"Total war".... yep, unless you are willing to go total war. Like in, slaughtering all the men in a village if one GI is killed. Like the Nazis did when they occupied Europe. But then, did that count as "victory?" It sure stopped insurrection, but I don't know if that's the same as victory.

And what I'm saying is exactly, "Don't waste the lives of your warriors, the resources of your nation, and the morale of your countrymen..." because that's what is being done right now. And continuing it won't validate it; it's already done.

I think we agree pretty closely on everything. It's just that I don't see total war as the solution to bring anything other than global annihilation. The planet's gotten too small, and weapons have gotten too powerful, and information moves too quickly. And war has become too expensive, in dollar cost, resource cost, environmental cost, and human cost. "Total War" is a concept that is too dangerous for the real world any more.

If the world decided to take us on, we would lose. So would they, but so would we.


"Strange game; the only winning move is to not play." -- WHOPR


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Old 04-28-2007, 12:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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I dunno, Steelczar, I think we agree pretty closely. Or at least I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I didn't use the word "sensitive", you put it in there. I think we need some blunt force diplomacy, not delicate negotiations.

"Total war".... yep, unless you are willing to go total war. Like in, slaughtering all the men in a village if one GI is killed. Like the Nazis did when they occupied Europe. But then, did that count as "victory?" It sure stopped insurrection, but I don't know if that's the same as victory.

And what I'm saying is exactly, "Don't waste the lives of your warriors, the resources of your nation, and the morale of your countrymen..." because that's what is being done right now. And continuing it won't validate it; it's already done.

I think we agree pretty closely on everything. It's just that I don't see total war as the solution to bring anything other than global annihilation. The planet's gotten too small, and weapons have gotten too powerful, and information moves too quickly. And war has become too expensive, in dollar cost, resource cost, environmental cost, and human cost. "Total War" is a concept that is too dangerous for the real world any more.

If the world decided to take us on, we would lose. So would they, but so would we.


"Strange game; the only winning move is to not play." -- WHOPR


Tom



Props for the 'War Games' reference Mosca. LOL But when i speak of 'Total War' i mean in a sense of doing what 'must' be done to win. Though it may be perceived as harsh and or cruel. (When in reality it's just simply a matter of neccesity)
IMO i don't think that a Nuclear strike is exactly what's neccessary. Let's just say,.....i think we should be more 'heavy handed' so to speak with those whom aid extremists. (Be it literally or through their suppossed indifference)
In other words,.....apply 'pressure' to THEM to weed out the madmen amongst them. With the knowledge that if they do not they will be removed from their own positions of power. By literally seizing control of by force that which is the base of their said wealth and power.

(ie: no more games or worrying about the consent of SOME other nations. Or subtlety in regards to setting up Puppet goverments)

Is this fair ? Perhaps not. Would it be fair to bar entry to the United States of anyone of Saudi, Egyptian, Iraqi, Iranian or Iraqi descent until the the upstanding majority of them turn their back on the extremists amongst them ? No,....not at all.

But it would be very effective in 'curbing' the actual acts of terrorism. But i think the better question is,......do those whom hold power here actually really want to resolve issues as oppossed to allowing a 'controlled' (in their eyes) degree of chaos and fear for their own personal gain ?


And BTW,.....none of the other Nations with the capabilty to start a another World War by engaging us has the 'actual' resolve to do so short of their literal existence being threatened. (Though some might stand on the sidelines and hurl insults and make hollow threats)
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Old 04-28-2007, 12:40 PM   #28
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

I can't remember the last time that I've seen the nation this divided on an issue. It doesn't help when reporters and commentators constantly throw politics into non-political issues (Limbaugh saying that the VT killer was obviously far-left was one example, although both sides do it to further their agendas). My wife and I can't really watch the news anymore simply because of all the bashing that goes on.

With non-political stories suddenly politicized, it's tough to get the real facts on such an important and difficult issue like this where thousands of our soldiers lives are at stake. With the lack of strategy that we've seen in this fight, we either need to change our approach on dealing with the insurgents, or try to find another alternative. The past quarrels are quickly becoming irrelevant, since they really aren't helping us get any closer to a solution.

Just my two cents...

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Old 04-28-2007, 01:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

Agreed, CG. I'm against finger-pointing and useless squabbling.

Steelczar, I don't necessarily mean nuclear war. I just mean total war. And I agree, I know that the western world has no desire for total war, let alone the resolve to do it. That's not a failing in my eyes, that's positive. I don't doubt that what you propose would have an effect; what I doubt is that you could equate that effect with victory. Like I said: subjugating a population is easy, if you're bloodthirsty enough. But it never ends; there is no victory to win militarily. There is no scenario where we can kill enough Iraqis so that when we leave everyone will be peaceful and get along. We would have to stay there and kill them, forever.

If it's wrong to not have the stomach for that, well then I'm wrong.


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Old 04-28-2007, 02:39 PM   #30
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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Agreed, CG. I'm against finger-pointing and useless squabbling.

Steelczar, I don't necessarily mean nuclear war. I just mean total war. And I agree, I know that the western world has no desire for total war, let alone the resolve to do it. That's not a failing in my eyes, that's positive. I don't doubt that what you propose would have an effect; what I doubt is that you could equate that effect with victory. Like I said: subjugating a population is easy, if you're bloodthirsty enough. But it never ends; there is no victory to win militarily. There is no scenario where we can kill enough Iraqis so that when we leave everyone will be peaceful and get along. We would have to stay there and kill them, forever.

If it's wrong to not have the stomach for that, well then I'm wrong.


Tom


Tom i'm not proposing staying and 'killing' Iraqi's or the citizens of any other propossed middle eastern enemy forever.
What i'm am saying is remove the cancer. Which in the case of these Middle eastern Nations that consider us their enemy overtly, (because it sounds good from a pack behavioral standpont),.......is their social ruling class.
Their leaders, whom are wealthy and powerful because they control a great deal of the worlds supply of oil. Their leaders whom truthfully follow no religious or Holy doctorine except that of their own personal gain.

Their leaders whom use ideaology to distract their flock from the fact that they are in fact absoloute capitalists themselves and greatly covet and indulge themselves in a great deal of what they claim to be 'wicked western vice'.
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