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Old 04-28-2007, 02:59 PM   #31
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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Originally Posted by Chronicgaming View Post
I can't remember the last time that I've seen the nation this divided on an issue. It doesn't help when reporters and commentators constantly throw politics into non-political issues (Limbaugh saying that the VT killer was obviously far-left was one example, although both sides do it to further their agendas). My wife and I can't really watch the news anymore simply because of all the bashing that goes on.

With non-political stories suddenly politicized, it's tough to get the real facts on such an important and difficult issue like this where thousands of our soldiers lives are at stake. With the lack of strategy that we've seen in this fight, we either need to change our approach on dealing with the insurgents, or try to find another alternative. The past quarrels are quickly becoming irrelevant, since they really aren't helping us get any closer to a solution.

Just my two cents...

And this would be why I rarely discuss politics with anyone, and why I cringe whenever subjects like this come up on message boards - or anywhere else, for that matter. When people start showing more civility and understanding of opposing viewpoints, rather than dismiss them and go directly to the mudslinging, then I'll be more willing. Since that isn't going to happen any time soon, I'll stick to staying on the sidelines and keeping my views to myself.
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Old 04-28-2007, 03:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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Oh the inaccuracies!!! I can see that you know very little about this situation

1) Since when did President Bush conduct investigations?....the CIA information presented to congress was the same that was presented to Bush

2) The "hundreds of thousands" of innocents...were (and still are) killed primarily by suicide bombers and muslim extremists..sunni vs shiite....and shame on you for putting that on the shoulders of any american..whether it be the President or our soldiers.

3) Soldiers do not sign up to "give their lives"..that is how you lose wars. Soldiers sign up to make the enemy lose theirs...and yes..every American soldiers life is worth more to me. To equate our soldiers lives to that of the enemy or to foreign nationals is a scenerio ussually reserved to those who dont respect the military....

..and you make want to lay off drinking for a bit
You're right. I know very little about this situation. What I do know is that this war was a HUGE mistake, and the reasons we went to war weren't valid. The question now is what do we do?Throw good money after bad? Waste more lives? That God this idiot no longer has a rubber stamp in Congress. U.S.A. U.S.A.
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Old 04-28-2007, 06:19 PM   #33
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

Steelczar,

We did that with Saddam; and look what we have.

Again, I think you make some very truthful points, but I disagree that they will work in the real world. I wish they would.


Tom
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Old 04-28-2007, 07:59 PM   #34
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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Steelczar,

We did that with Saddam; and look what we have.

Again, I think you make some very truthful points, but I disagree that they will work in the real world. I wish they would.


Tom


Ousting Saddam isn't what has turned Iraq into the clusterfook that it has become. Wasting money and troops trying to 'police' it is the problem. Our intiall 'costs' in removing him and his regime from power were justified. (As exacting decisive force against others like him would also be)

Bottom line is,.....the point is not just to simply destroy such anti American regimes militarily. But to also cripple the 'Puppet Master Oil Barons' ability to finance attacks against us,.. as well as the sway they hold over their people by exacting a measure of 'tribute' (if you will) until they decide it's 'bad buisness' to allow extremist any 'room to breathe' amongst them.

As far as your 'Real world' comment. I'm well aware that society as it stands now is far to effeminate to agree with and or condone such actions on our part. Henceforth the reason i stated far earlier,.....that if not prepared to actually do what's neccessary,.....then mind your own.
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Old 05-07-2007, 11:20 PM   #35
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

Wow 76!

Plus if you go back to the soundbites from early 2000's, virtually ALL the turncoats agreed not only with Bush's decision, but with his information as well.
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Old 05-08-2007, 07:03 AM   #36
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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Wow 76!

Plus if you go back to the soundbites from early 2000's, virtually ALL the turncoats agreed not only with Bush's decision, but with his information as well.

LOL, yeah; in the immortal words of Otter to Flounder, paraphrased to fit: "Hey, you ****ed up; you trusted me!"

Seeing as how he controlled all the information, and all.


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Old 05-08-2007, 01:24 PM   #37
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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LOL, yeah; in the immortal words of Otter to Flounder, paraphrased to fit: "Hey, you ****ed up; you trusted me!"

Seeing as how he controlled all the information, and all.


Tom

Tom...

I respect your posts... but I gotta disagree with you.

the president does NOT control all the information. CIA, DIA, NSA, and all the alphabet soup agencies scattered throughout our government have thier own empires, and produce thier own info. That is what makes this intelligence czar position such a joke...

Anyways... the president can ONLY move on the information that has been vetted and chopped up and then reorganized into a document presented. Furthermore, other intelligence agencies of other nations had come to the same conclusions, AS DID THE UN. As did the CIA under Clinton. There was a continuous, evergrowing mountain of evidence towards Saddam having WMD. That is un-arguable for anyone that does not choose to re-write history.

The real question then HAS to become, what HAPPENED to the WMD that Saddam had?
From my perspective (which isn't much), there can only be one of three answers...

1. Saddam was bluffing, thinking that he had to keep a face and look of power for fear of uprising in his own land and attack from others (Iran, Saudi Arabia, remember... in HIS mind, that would be VERY possible).

2. His subordinates TOLD him that they had the weaponry, but did not. This would seem too far-fetched on the service, but think it through. 1000's of chemical warfare suits were found in Iraq. US military intercepted a code word from Saddam ORDERING A CHEMICAL ATTACK that never came (funny how it circulated in the media for a few days, then once they got on the no WMD bandwagon, that piece of info fell right off the radar). Saddam created an enviroment where it was better to lie to the dictator and keep your life, then tell the truth and die. That is normal in those situations... In the USSR, every factory, every farm, ALWAYS made quota... on paper. Why? Cause if they didn't, they died or went to the gulag. I suspect the same thing here.

3. They had WMD, France, Germany, and Russia KNEW they had WMD, they were involved in one way or another with the WMD (remember the big oil for food scandal), and stalled so that Iraq could get the WMD out of Iraq into Iran and Syria. IRan? wait a second, I just said in point one that they were afraid of attacks from Iran... Yep. But remember in the first war in the gulf, just 3 years after Iran and Iraq stopped fighting, IRan allowed many Iraqi warplanes to fly to Iran to escape the US... Furthermore, Saddam would rather Iran had the WMD, or syria, then the US. So yes, it is VERY possible... especially with France involved, who took the Ayotolla Khomeini in before he came back and started the revolution in 1979. There is a long history there... with France, and france was part of the oil for food, and fance had help build the nuclear facility in Iraq that Israel bombed... Yeah... this scenario moves into the possible realm with EASE...

Now, any of these three scenarios are much more possible then President Bush silencing half a dozen intelligence agencies, fooling the State department, tricking foriegn intelligence agencies to lie to thier heads of state... then getting Putin to admit on TV that Iraq WAS PLANNING AN ATTACK ON THE U.S. Oh yeah... that hit the airwaves and fell off about 3 days later as well, why derail the NO WMD chant?

In the end, I have grown to hate politics. As a true christian conservitive, I feel cheated by this president. He has ONLY touched on my issues of abortion and moral issues ONLY during election time... then ran away at all other times. I do not like this president.

However, the opposition has manipulated facts to unsubstanciated conclusions that in the end....

MAKES ME HATE POLITCS EVEN MORE...

At this point, there is not ONE person that I trust enough to vote for this coming year. It is so bad, I don't even trust the third part nominees....
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Old 05-08-2007, 04:02 PM   #38
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

Preach, it might surprise you to know that I voted for this president.

I believed him, and I too feel cheated by him. I believe that our government picked the information that fit what they wanted to do and then acted on it, ignoring the analysis that we the people paid for (by allotting tax dollars to pay for analysts) that said that there were more compelling reasons to stay out of Iraq militarily. And if I believed the executive branch, if I decided that overall we should send troops to Iraq, then I can understand how those in Congress believed. The evidence was specifically selected and presented to lead the country to the conclusion desired by the executive branch. More powerful evidence to the contrary was ignored. I could cite this if you'd like, but it's fairly well documented by now. even Tenet's new book says so. And Tenet has a MOF from Bush.

My position and Steelczar76's aren't really different; unless you have the stomach to wage war brutally and mercilessly, don't wage war. Well, unless we are willing to occupy foreign lands the same way the Germans and Japanese did 65 years ago, this occupation is doomed. But I would hope that we are better people than the Nazis and IJF were then. If the choice is acting as they did or our occupation being doomed, I'll withdraw from Iraq thank you. Because if we act as the Axis did, then America is over.

So back to my question: what do we do NOW? We can't stay, we don't have the resources, our people are dying, we are unwilling to act with total brutality (and rightly so), and our presence is contributing to the instability of the country. And we can't leave, because as soon as we do Iran or Syria (or both) will march right in.

It's a total cluster, is what it is.
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Old 05-08-2007, 04:52 PM   #39
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

Tom...

Where I disagree with you is the beleif in the WILLFUL misleading of people by the president. There is just NO WAY you can prove a conspiracy between the Brit, American, Italian, Russian, Spanish, etc. exec. branches to mold information and deny other information.

Did we miss stuff? Absolutely. Was there errors? Of course. War is not about how well it is done, but about who makes the fewest errors.

And that is what I have a problem with. Tom, it seems that most of America has taken a "management" view of war. When it become unpalatable, or when the bottom line isn't to our liking, we close that part of the business and move on. That is precisely how wars are lost.

Let us get VERY specific right now. We WON the war we went to fight. Then, in the process of setting up another government, ANOTHER ENEMY came INTO the country and attacked Iraq AND the U.S. troops. That enemy has used guerilla tactics, created trained opposition leaders, and created an underground army. It is PRECISELY what they are trying to do in the USA, Britian, and elsewhere. They are able to do it in Iraq because it is thier own backyard, and they know how to stoke the fires. WHo is this enemy?

IRAN and SYRIA.

We are now fighting a proxy war against these two states. Why? what does a democratic, pro-west Iraq look like to Iran? To Syria? It looks exactly like what it wil become... and SHOULD BECOME.. a staging ground for allied forces to end both nations' governments and finally stabilze the mideast.

It is NOT the US that has destabilzed the mideast, it HAS BEEN destabilzed for 25 years, ever since Iran became a theocracy. Heck, it has been destabilzed since before that. However, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and now Iraq have ceased to be a threat to Israel, and tried to co-exist. Now you can add Libya as well. The result is only TWO ... that is right... .TWO COUNTRIES that still exist, trying to destabilze the mideast... Iran and Syria.

A peaceful Iraq, one with ties to the west and allowing for staging grounds for American and western/UN troops is a VERY REAL THREAT to Iran. It checkmates them on three sides (Don't forget Afganistan and the gulf). Thus, they have now gone to war against us in Afganistan.

To leave now is to embolden and empower both Al Quiada and Iran to the point where we will be fighting them in a bigger war, possibly a war with nuclear weapons, and possibly over two or three continents.

That is not an option. Therefore, the option is to stay now and fight.

Granted, we need to change the way we are fighting....

Better boarder patrol, more agressive military towards iraq and iran when they come a cross the borders.. etc.

But in my mind, that is the ONLY option.
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Old 05-08-2007, 05:32 PM   #40
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Default Re: Congress Must Cut Off Bush Family War Profits Part 1

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At this point, there is not ONE person that I trust enough to vote for this coming year. It is so bad, I don't even trust the third part nominees....
in that case, may i suggest richardson? hes democrat, but realizes you cant take guns away from cowboys in the old wild west. plus his resume speaks for itself.

if the ticket comes down to hillary vs. gulianni, i may puke and them write in a candidate named hipchest. a ticket of richardson vs. mccain doesnt seem quite as scary.
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