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Old 06-03-2007, 02:58 PM   #21
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

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The day you eliminate Unions is the same day that politicians start making plans to roll back those labor laws the unions fought so hard for.
I highly doubt that. And, they will never go away.

Then there are the teachers unions...my buddy. 29 year old HS english teacher. Bitches non stop about pay and benefits and how they want to strike, etc. etc. This is the same guy that sits on his ass for 3 months during the summer playing his Playstation and doing work around his yard. I told him to get a summer job and that his pay was better then mine if he prorated it for all 12 months instead of the 9 he really works.

Unions are outdated. I have no problem finding decent paying work and I don't have a union. They just become enablers for lazyness.

I work in IT at one of the Big Three auto companies, in their main data center. We have union Millwrights at one of our data centers. If I were to ship a server over there, we aren't aloud to just carry it up to the floor it needs to go to. You have to submit some form and it gets done a day later. We waste tens of thousands of dollars once you add up all the extra days that keeps a server out of commission. Just because some guy needs to justify his existence. They just sit around drinking coffee and reading the paper most of the day.

My grandfather, who was a foreman at J&L Steele and worked there for over 40 years bitches non stop about the union...and he was in it!
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Old 06-03-2007, 05:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

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The day you eliminate Unions is the same day that politicians start making plans to roll back those labor laws the unions fought so hard for.

Excactly, they have already tried.


There is greed on both parts, no doubt, each side is going to look out for themselves. I work in the Automotive industry, and we're union, we have basically worked well with our Mgmt. I work for a supplier.
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Old 06-03-2007, 06:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

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Originally Posted by Hammer67 View Post
I highly doubt that. And, they will never go away.

Then there are the teachers unions...my buddy. 29 year old HS english teacher. Bitches non stop about pay and benefits and how they want to strike, etc. etc. This is the same guy that sits on his ass for 3 months during the summer playing his Playstation and doing work around his yard. I told him to get a summer job and that his pay was better then mine if he prorated it for all 12 months instead of the 9 he really works.

Unions are outdated. I have no problem finding decent paying work and I don't have a union. They just become enablers for lazyness.

I work in IT at one of the Big Three auto companies, in their main data center. We have union Millwrights at one of our data centers. If I were to ship a server over there, we aren't aloud to just carry it up to the floor it needs to go to. You have to submit some form and it gets done a day later. We waste tens of thousands of dollars once you add up all the extra days that keeps a server out of commission. Just because some guy needs to justify his existence. They just sit around drinking coffee and reading the paper most of the day.

My grandfather, who was a foreman at J&L Steele and worked there for over 40 years bitches non stop about the union...and he was in it!

You think that's because of the Unions? Son I'm military and it's just as bed here. It's about management covering their asses. Your grand dad may bitch about Unions, but I bet he never gave back one of his Union benefits did he.

They've been around since they were called trade guilds in the Middle Ages and they're not going away. People are always going to form associations that benefit everyone in the group. If you're really in IT like you say you are, you probably belong to at least two or three. Besides, some of the standard clauses in your contract are there because of the hard work and sacrifice of people who came before you. At the very least, you should show a little appreciation for the things you have because management damn sure wouldn't have given them to you. They were earned by people before you.

Now I'm fired up, so I'll let this go now.
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Old 06-03-2007, 07:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

No one is questioning that unions weren't needed in the past. The argument is that the unions have gone way too far, they have stolen from the companies they work for and from their own members and there isn't much of a need for them anymore.

I was self employeed and a member of the Operating Engineers. Can someone explain why I had to pay Local 66 in Pittsburgh over $3.00 an hour more than what I paid the Washington DC local 77? The benefit package was exactly the same. Where did that extra money go?

How many people worked or had friends who worked in a steel mill bragged about do nothing for 8 or more hours? I certianly don't think the fall of the steel industry was all the unions fault but if you don't think they had a major part of it you're living in a fantasy world.

Are there companies that are run by people who are only looking out for themselves? Of course. Are there many union leaders who hide behind the "we are looking out for our members," but in reality they are filling their pockets along with the pockets of their friends with huge amounts of money and they don't give a shit about the members? Absolutely. Are there many union members who are like robots and only think what their leaders tell them what to think? I believe so.

As for Jeremy and the military comment. That's run by our goverment which is by far worse than any union or private managment there is. Covering their asses? I think that's one of the biggest problems our country faces today. No ones wants to take responsibility for anything. It seems everyone wants to blame someone else.
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Old 06-03-2007, 09:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

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No one is questioning that unions weren't needed in the past. The argument is that the unions have gone way too far, they have stolen from the companies they work for and from their own members and there isn't much of a need for them anymore.

I was self employeed and a member of the Operating Engineers. Can someone explain why I had to pay Local 66 in Pittsburgh over $3.00 an hour more than what I paid the Washington DC local 77? The benefit package was exactly the same. Where did that extra money go?

How many people worked or had friends who worked in a steel mill bragged about do nothing for 8 or more hours? I certianly don't think the fall of the steel industry was all the unions fault but if you don't think they had a major part of it you're living in a fantasy world.

Are there companies that are run by people who are only looking out for themselves? Of course. Are there many union leaders who hide behind the "we are looking out for our members," but in reality they are filling their pockets along with the pockets of their friends with huge amounts of money and they don't give a shit about the members? Absolutely. Are there many union members who are like robots and only think what their leaders tell them what to think? I believe so.

As for Jeremy and the military comment. That's run by our goverment which is by far worse than any union or private managment there is. Covering their asses? I think that's one of the biggest problems our country faces today. No ones wants to take responsibility for anything. It seems everyone wants to blame someone else.

As far as this stuff of people getting paid for 8 hrs sitting around doing nothing is a crock also. Not 1 person in my plant sits around and does nothing. Mgmt sitsaround more tha anyof us do.


I agree, it is partly the unions fault pertaining to the fall of the Steel Industry, but the corporations were just as greedy, and at fault.
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Old 06-03-2007, 09:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

Unions and corporations, republicans and democrats, are all fighting for bigger pieces of the pie. then they spend to retain power rather than help those who put them there. Unions do it...
Corporations do it.
Democrats sure as heck do it.
Republicans sure as heck do it.

One thing that will not solve ANYTHING is saying it is all HIS fault. Nope. Look in the mirror. That is who you should blame.

And as for the original post...

Reagan had a democratic congress for the most part... Clinton had a republican congress for the most part.

However... Except for taxing the heck out of the economy and shutting it down... the economy is in the hand of the Fed... NOT the president or congress.

Why are people not making as much now? Simple, more money drives higher prices. It was bound to catch up with us someday. that is economics 101.

And personally, I really want to know where these statistics come from. Cause from where I sit, I see a whole lot of people with a whole lot more buying power then thier parents had.

My goodness, the poor that I know have high speed internet, two TV's, etc.

Maybe the issue isn't buying power, but the fact that many people today are not willing to take the risks that thier parents were willing to take.

Also funny, I seem to remember an article that came out saying that Americans now work more hours then anyone else... including the Japanese.

On top of all that... let us also discuss what is driving up the cost of living in America... including EPA laws (which create all TYPES of financial problems, including HUNDREDS of extra dollars a year on gas), where I live, housing code laws (you have to buy 80 acres in order to build a house... which is artificially driving up housing costs), etc. etc.

There is SO MUCH that goes into the mix, that it is impossible to blame any one thing.

However, one thing IS true. We saw it in the 1960's, 1980's, and again in the 2000's, the best way to jump start an economy is to give money back to people to spend.

And as for that "Rich" idiocy...

I can't tell you how many self-employed businesses make 250,000 to 300,000 a year. They are considered "rich." However, they only clear 70-110 thousand a year. THEN, they have to pay for all the benefits that everyone else gets from thier companies. So much for the middle class... they get taxed into the lower middle class.

Which brings up another point I want to see...

How much were companies paying per employee in 1970 versus now?

I bet you will find the TOTAL pay PACKAGE per employee will be the same to higher...
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Old 06-03-2007, 10:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

80 acres to build a house? Where do you live?

Mutiple Causation, we all learned it in high school and it applies here.

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And personally, I really want to know where these statistics come from. Cause from where I sit, I see a whole lot of people with a whole lot more buying power then thier parents had.
That's a good point but unfortunately I'm past my 30's so I wouldn't count.
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Old 06-03-2007, 10:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

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Originally Posted by LarryNJ View Post
No one is questioning that unions weren't needed in the past. The argument is that the unions have gone way too far, they have stolen from the companies they work for and from their own members and there isn't much of a need for them anymore.

I was self employeed and a member of the Operating Engineers. Can someone explain why I had to pay Local 66 in Pittsburgh over $3.00 an hour more than what I paid the Washington DC local 77? The benefit package was exactly the same. Where did that extra money go?

How many people worked or had friends who worked in a steel mill bragged about do nothing for 8 or more hours? I certianly don't think the fall of the steel industry was all the unions fault but if you don't think they had a major part of it you're living in a fantasy world.

Are there companies that are run by people who are only looking out for themselves? Of course. Are there many union leaders who hide behind the "we are looking out for our members," but in reality they are filling their pockets along with the pockets of their friends with huge amounts of money and they don't give a shit about the members? Absolutely. Are there many union members who are like robots and only think what their leaders tell them what to think? I believe so.

As for Jeremy and the military comment. That's run by our goverment which is by far worse than any union or private managment there is. Covering their asses? I think that's one of the biggest problems our country faces today. No ones wants to take responsibility for anything. It seems everyone wants to blame someone else.

I've been around Union work sites since I was 14. I have never seen anyone sitting on their ass. Matter of fact I've seen my dad send people home for not busting their ass as hard as their foreman was.
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Old 06-03-2007, 11:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

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I've been around Union work sites since I was 14. I have never seen anyone sitting on their ass. Matter of fact I've seen my dad send people home for not busting their ass as hard as their foreman was.
Jeremy...

The people Larry talks about, and I saw protected on the job when I worked for the CWA are the ones that give your father (a union man) a bad name.
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Old 06-04-2007, 06:09 AM   #30
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Default Re: Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

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You think that's because of the Unions? Son I'm military and it's just as bed here. It's about management covering their asses. Your grand dad may bitch about Unions, but I bet he never gave back one of his Union benefits did he.

They've been around since they were called trade guilds in the Middle Ages and they're not going away. People are always going to form associations that benefit everyone in the group. If you're really in IT like you say you are, you probably belong to at least two or three. Besides, some of the standard clauses in your contract are there because of the hard work and sacrifice of people who came before you. At the very least, you should show a little appreciation for the things you have because management damn sure wouldn't have given them to you. They were earned by people before you.

Now I'm fired up, so I'll let this go now.
#1) I appreciate what labor unions accomplished in the late 1800's and early 1900's in the US.

#2) Belong to 2 or 3 what? Unions? BS. I got hired on my own. Negotiated my own salary and benefits and don't pay union dues. As it should be. If I didn't like a job or pay, I found another job.

#3) The line about "appreciation for what you have because management wouldn't give them to you" is exactly the kind of warped mentality I am talking about in regards to unions. No offense, but based on that one comment, it sounds like you feel a company "owes" you something. I say, F that. They owe you nothing. You CHOOSE to work there and CHOOSE to accept what they pay you or you go somewhere else. If you are a worthwhile employee, they will try to take care of you. I get what I get because of my hard work and my worth to the company.


I still stand by my opinions of the Unions. They were necessary at one time, but are now cesspools of corruption.

Are corporations greedy? Of course! They are FOR PROFIT organizations. Their whole reason for existence is money!
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