Economy robust, middle class income dropping?

[Preacher]

Originally Posted by Hammer67

That is part of the problem, especially in the automotive industry. And they are just now noticing it. You have some people, considered unskilled labor, making more money then people with MBA's and they balk when someone suggests that may not be market value. Anyone with a lick of logic must realize the hole some of the major union employers dug themselves into and the political power of the Unions themselves.

But, human nature is to hold on to what you have. And I don't blame them (union employees) for being offended when GM, Ford, USAirways, etc. realize they are overpaying and come back and say "Enough".

Then, all of a sudden, you have this guy who has a family and has maybe overextended himself or even just learned to live off of that high income. Perhaps he has multiple cars, kids in college, summer cabins, boats, a high mortgage payment, etc. Of course they would balk at that. But unfortunately, as they are learning in Michigan (and as they learned in Pittsburgh in the 60's and 70's), if you aren't willing to take a cut back down to reality, then you won't have a job, period.

It is a really touchy subject as many people need to change the fabric of their lives.

Yep!

[Jeremy]

Originally Posted by Hammer67

That is part of the problem, especially in the automotive industry. And they are just now noticing it. You have some people, considered unskilled labor, making more money then people with MBA's and they balk when someone suggests that may not be market value. Anyone with a lick of logic must realize the hole some of the major union employers dug themselves into and the political power of the Unions themselves.

But, human nature is to hold on to what you have. And I don't blame them (union employees) for being offended when GM, Ford, USAirways, etc. realize they are overpaying and come back and say "Enough".

Then, all of a sudden, you have this guy who has a family and has maybe overextended himself or even just learned to live off of that high income. Perhaps he has multiple cars, kids in college, summer cabins, boats, a high mortgage payment, etc. Of course they would balk at that. But unfortunately, as they are learning in Michigan (and as they learned in Pittsburgh in the 60's and 70's), if you aren't willing to take a cut back down to reality, then you won't have a job, period.

It is a really touchy subject as many people need to change the fabric of their lives.

I got it now. "I'm smarter than you so I should make more money." If you had been straight with me from the get go we would have never had to have this argument.

See ya later.

[Hammer67]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

I got it now. "I'm smarter than you so I should make more money." If you had been straight with me from the get go we would have never had to have this argument.

See ya later.

Dude, don't get all offended. That's not it. But, I do think there is a hierarchy to pay-scale. That's why I don't make as much as someone with an MBA and they probably won't make as much as a Doctor or Lawyer. Schooling has a direct influence on earning potential. Period. And, it has nothing to do with how "smart" you are. One of my best friends is a mechanic and can rebuild an engine. I would have no idea where to start. But, I can build a computer and fix his PC problems. I went to college, he didn't. Does that make either one of us smarter then the other? Absolutely not. But the fact that I went to college, does probably (I say PROBABLY) open up my earning potential and options more then his. That's all. He could go to college if he wanted to and be in the same position.

That being said. The earning potential of someone with a PHD is much better then someone with only a GED. That's life, buddy.

Don't drag this conversation down and make insinuations about my views just because you disagree with me and are taking it personally.

[fansince'76]

Originally Posted by Hammer67

But the fact that I went to college, does probably (I say PROBABLY) open up my earning potential and options more then him.

That being said. The earning potential of someone with a PHD is much better then someone with only a GED. That's life, buddy.

I can attest to this being absolute fact as I've been on both sides of this coin - I joined the military (6 years) and then went to work right after high school as I was burned out on school and finally went back to college in my late 20's as a non-traditional student, earning my Bachelor's in my early 30s. My reasons? I got tired of working shit jobs for shit pay and watching people who I was genuinely more intelligent than earning double (or more) what I was making at the time, solely due to the fact that they had a "sheepskin" and I didn't. I certainly don't regret my decision to go back at all - I'm way better off now than I was then as far as my finances are concerned. And you're absolutely right about your point as far as "the more you learn, the more you earn" is concerned, Hammer - that most assuredly is life.

[Jeremy]

Like I said, I'm out. I see where this thing is headed and I have no desire to be a part of it.

[Mosca]

The point of the initial article isn't covering just blue collar workers. It covers all workers, blue collar, tech, IT, middle management; everyone who could be considered "middle class".

No one owes anyone a living. What I see is more troubling; it's the belief that we can continually do better that is at risk. It's that belief that drives us all upward.

Our optimism is something that makes us American. Globalism be damned, we love the carrot on the stick. For every union worker that you can accuse of slacking, I can show you one taking all the overtime he can get, or doubling out his hourly with piecework. I've been in sales for the last 26 years because I love the thrill of making every last damn dollar I can.

We have the reputation of being the hardest workers on the planet, Asians notwithstanding. We work more hours per week and take less vacation time than anyone. There is no shortage of work ethic in this country, and that is because of the belief that work is rewarded. I see it reflected constantly here in the forum. EVERYONE here believes in the value of work. Why? Not because we like working! It's because we believe that the REWARD is there. We have been taught that if we work hard we can win!

Take away that belief, and what is left?


Tom

[Hammer67]

Originally Posted by fansince'76

I can attest to this being absolute fact as I've been on both sides of this coin - I joined the military (6 years) and then went to work right after high school as I was burned out on school and finally went back to college in my late 20's as a non-traditional student, earning my Bachelor's in my early 30s. My reasons? I got tired of working shit jobs for shit pay and watching people who I was genuinely more intelligent than earning double (or more) what I was making at the time, solely due to the fact that they had a "sheepskin" and I didn't. I certainly don't regret my decision to go back at all - I'm way better off now than I was then as far as my finances are concerned. And you're absolutely right about your point as far as "the more you learn, the more you earn" is concerned, Hammer - that most assuredly is life.

Exactly. And it has less to do with "smarts" and more to do with motivation and will.

Well, my point has been made...but, unfortunatley, too many people around where I live do not see things this way and are going to be in for a pretty harsh reality check soon. Here's hoping those that have been less fortunate find employment outside of this industry!

And, my job isnt' safe either. But I made it through the first and second round of cuts, so obviously I have something they want/need.

[Hammer67]

Originally Posted by Mosca

The point of the initial article isn't covering just blue collar workers. It covers all workers, blue collar, tech, IT, middle management; everyone who could be considered "middle class".

No one owes anyone a living. What I see is more troubling; it's the belief that we can continually do better that is at risk. It's that belief that drives us all upward.

Our optimism is something that makes us American. Globalism be damned, we love the carrot on the stick. For every union worker that you can accuse of slacking, I can show you one taking all the overtime he can get, or doubling out his hourly with piecework. I've been in sales for the last 26 years because I love the thrill of making every last damn dollar I can.

We have the reputation of being the hardest workers on the planet, Asians notwithstanding. We work more hours per week and take less vacation time than anyone. There is no shortage of work ethic in this country, and that is because of the belief that work is rewarded. I see it reflected constantly here in the forum. EVERYONE here believes in the value of work. Why? Not because we like working! It's because we believe that the REWARD is there. We have been taught that if we work hard we can win!

Take away that belief, and what is left?


Tom

Now sales is a tough gig. There is a position where you CAN'T slack. You get what you put into it. I worked in IT sales selling servers to VAR's up until about 5 years ago when I decided to go to my roots and get on the more techical side of the business.

You have to have the drive to get rejected 100+ times a day when you start out in sales. I thought I could have done well at it as did my former employer but I didn't have the heart for it...I owed it to them and myself to leave and pursue what I wanted.

What do you sell?

[Mosca]

Originally Posted by Hammer67

Now sales is a tough gig. There is a position where you CAN'T slack. You get what you put into it. I worked in IT sales selling servers to VAR's up until about 5 years ago when I decided to go to my roots and get on the more techical side of the business.

You have to have the drive to get rejected 100+ times a day when you start out in sales. I thought I could have done well at it as did my former employer but I didn't have the heart for it...I owed it to them and myself to leave and pursue what I wanted.

What do you sell?

Check your PMs.


Tom

[Preacher]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

I got it now. "I'm smarter than you so I should make more money." If you had been straight with me from the get go we would have never had to have this argument.

See ya later.

Jeremy. That is not even close to what is being said. There are people with all kinds of intelligence doing all kinds of jobs.

However, the truth is, those who choose to sacrifice making a living for more education usually come out making more money. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem however, is when people demand the same or more money then those who have sacrificed 4, 6, 10 years of thier life in education.

In some cases, they deserve that money, and a non-union job will allow those who do not get educated, but can perform better then the post HS educated people, to be justly compensated. Meanwhile, in a union job, your stuck at your wage, regardless of how hard you work, regardless of how much education you have had.

And by the way, college degrees, master's degrees, and doctorates are NOT about a persons' intelligence, they are about a persons tenacity.