Why register with the Steelers Fever Forums?
 • Intelligent and friendly discussions.
 • It's free and it's quick. Always.
 • Enter events in the forums calendar.
 • Very user friendly software.
 • Exclusive contests and giveaways.

 Donate to Steelers Fever, Click here
 Our 2014 Goal: $450.00 - To Date: $450.00 (100.00%)
 Home | Forums | Editorials | Shop | Tickets | Downloads | Contact Pittsburgh Steelers Forum Feed Not Just Fans. Hardcore Fans.

Go Back   Steelers Fever Forums > General Football > NFL Football


Steelers Fever Fan Shop

Doc's Sports Get FREE NFL Picks and College Football picks as well as Football Lines like live NFL Lines and updated NFL Power Rankings all at Doc's Sports Service.

Steelers

LOL

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-01-2007, 07:05 PM   #1
tony hipchest
IRONMAN a.k.a. Tony Stark
Supporter
 
tony hipchest's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Give me back my game...
Posts: 40,302
Member Number: 658
Thanks: 2,313
Thanked 10,361 Times in 4,303 Posts
Default Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

it was hard to disagree with the prisco article calling ty warren the most underrated player in the nfl. him, seymore, and wilfork make one hell of a d-line; one hell of an expensive d-line. if warren does make the pro bowl in 07, look for him to be the patriots next version of d. branch or a. samuel. i did some research to see if they could afford all 3 at market value and what i found was suprising and helps explain why the patriots are trading players and picks to accumulate future draft picks- it may be their only way to stay afloat after 08.

according to this link http://www.patscap.com/ that was thoughtfully provided by http://www.steelersalarycap.com/otherteamlinks.htm i found some things that were suprising. the patriots are indeed building for a superbowl run, but preparing to get a hell of alot younger. and it all starts with not resigning deion branch and letting corey dillon go:

* in 08 corey dillon and k. faulk will collectively be a $7.6 mil cap charge. ouch!

* while not overpaying for d. graham was a good idea, kyle brady will cost $3 mil against the cap, while ben watson only makes a third of that. ouch!

* looking at current 08 contracts the patriots will be $6 mil under the cap for 08 but that surely wont be enough to sign r. moss or a. samuel. in fact, it wont even be enough to sign one of them if either player performs how the patriots hope. who knows if t. bruschi wants to continue playing or go the route of w. mcginnest or j. seau. ouch!

* 08 will be the final contract year for these notable players: kyle brady, roosevelt colvin, matt cassell, heath evans, rodney harrison, russ hockstien, josh miller, james sanders, ty warren. ouch!

* in 09 the only starters from last year (06) who presently have a contract are t. brady, s. gostkowski, ellis hobbes, nick kaczur, dan koppen, matt light, logan mankins, laurence maroney, a. thomas, stephen neal, seymour, vrabel, (welker/stallworth?), wilfork. ouch!


the good news is, the patriots can try to trade alot of these players for 1st round picks. the bad news is, after the seattle/ d. branch deal, other teams may not want to be the 2nd sucker.
__________________
tony hipchest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2007, 07:17 PM   #2
MACH1
Quest For Seven
Supporter
 
MACH1's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Potataho
Posts: 14,773
Member Number: 3236
Thanks: 2,034
Thanked 6,252 Times in 2,298 Posts
Default Re: Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

Add to this year the ticking tome bomb that is Moss. Will he give a 100% or just play when feels the urge?
__________________


ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
MACH1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2007, 07:58 PM   #3
Stu Pidasso
Assistant Coach
Supporter
 
Stu Pidasso's Avatar
Default Re: Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

Who the hell cares? It's Pittsburgh Steeler Time! Pittsburgh Steeler Time!
__________________
Stu Pidasso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2007, 08:40 PM   #4
Newzfoxjr
Starter
 
Newzfoxjr's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 415
Member Number: 4116
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso View Post
Who the hell cares? It's Pittsburgh Steeler Time! Pittsburgh Steeler Time!
Haha. I agree.
Newzfoxjr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2007, 08:48 PM   #5
tony hipchest
IRONMAN a.k.a. Tony Stark
Supporter
 
tony hipchest's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Give me back my game...
Posts: 40,302
Member Number: 658
Thanks: 2,313
Thanked 10,361 Times in 4,303 Posts
Default Re: Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

yeah, its offseason.

theres plenty of talk about the signing of a 4th round steelers punter in the main forum though.
__________________
tony hipchest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2007, 05:50 AM   #6
Livinginthe past
Living Legend
 
Livinginthe past's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Crushing the AFCE...annually
Posts: 7,520
Member Number: 478
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default Re: Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
it was hard to disagree with the prisco article calling ty warren the most underrated player in the nfl. him, seymore, and wilfork make one hell of a d-line; one hell of an expensive d-line. if warren does make the pro bowl in 07, look for him to be the patriots next version of d. branch or a. samuel. i did some research to see if they could afford all 3 at market value and what i found was suprising and helps explain why the patriots are trading players and picks to accumulate future draft picks- it may be their only way to stay afloat after 08.
I think the Patriots have focused their attention/salary cap space on the D-line, in much the same way the Steelers had previously focused it on the O-line, as it is absolutely key to their style of play.

As far as the trading of picks goes, it is something i've seen Belioli do pretty much since they took over in New England - if they feel its a weak draft class (or weak in a specific area) they will trade into the following year.

Or for proven players that fit the system - like Corey Dillon - this year they invested in Welker (2nd rounder) and Randy Moss (4th rounder).

As far as I am aware, the Patriots have never really overpaid for a member of their team - in fact they have been called out many times prior to this offseason as being cheap and arrogant for assuming they can plug anyone in and get to the SB.

Using the term 'staying afloat' makes it appear as if they have got themselves into a Redskins type scenario of dishing out huge contracts to over-rated players who aren't suitable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
according to this link http://www.patscap.com/ that was thoughtfully provided by http://www.steelersalarycap.com/otherteamlinks.htm i found some things that were suprising. the patriots are indeed building for a superbowl run, but preparing to get a hell of alot younger. and it all starts with not resigning deion branch and letting corey dillon go:
Its fair to say the Patriots have always aimed to get younger - the one exception to this rule appears to be the LBer corps where Belichick clearly feels vets are a much better proposition than young talented rooks.

The Patriots let Branch go because he wanted too much money for what he brings to the table (I still think he is worth a 1st round pick but not at that contract value).

Dillon wants to still be 'the man' in New England, unfortunately the Patriots have moved toward Maroney as their main back this year.

We also let Vinatieri go because his potential contract would be unbalanced in terms of what he was worth to the team in the future (not what he had already achieved) and his replacement Gostkowski was 100% in the postseason (8/8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
* in 08 corey dillon and k. faulk will collectively be a $7.6 mil cap charge. ouch!
Yup Dillons 'dead money' hit is far from favorable but luckily it comes at a time when our (projected) starter for 2008, Laurence Maroney, will only count $1.6million toward the cap.

I think the Patriots are quite happy with investing approx $3.7million in salary cap space to Kevin Faulk - he has been (and probably will be) very important to what we do on 3rd downs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
* while not overpaying for d. graham was a good idea, kyle brady will cost $3 mil against the cap, while ben watson only makes a third of that. ouch!
Kyle Brady's 'cap hit' does seem a little excessive for a blocking TE but having young talented players (Watson) play for a fraction of their worth under their rookie contract is something the Patriots (and Steelers) have always done.

Is Brady worth what Faulk is? Hard to say, but I guess the Patriots FO think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
* looking at current 08 contracts the patriots will be $6 mil under the cap for 08 but that surely wont be enough to sign r. moss or a. samuel. in fact, it wont even be enough to sign one of them if either player performs how the patriots hope. who knows if t. bruschi wants to continue playing or go the route of w. mcginnest or j. seau. ouch!
Its looking more and more like Asante will play for just the single year under the franchise tag and then move on. If he does sign a long term contract his cap hit would be substantially less than the $7.8million he is costing this year.

If he moves there would be no cap hit (as far as I can tell) and the Patriots would essentially have $7.8million back in the salary cap space.

There is always room for manoevre with restructuring of contracts of vet players (Brady, Seymour etc) to make more cap room.

There are alot of unknowns, especially in the Randy Moss situation, of how he would react to winning/not winning a ring this year - would it make him more or less likely to return at a cheap price if he got his ring?

The Patriots really do want a guy who can stretch the field (hence the bum draft of Bethel 'Ginn' Johnson) and they'll want to keep one of these guys (Stallworth/Moss) on.

Its hard to even calculate their value for next year at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
* 08 will be the final contract year for these notable players: kyle brady, roosevelt colvin, matt cassell, heath evans, rodney harrison, russ hockstien, josh miller, james sanders, ty warren. ouch!
Two guys on that list stand out - Warren and Colvin - as players the Patriots will try hard to re-sign. Both are starters and both have performed at a high level in the Patriots 3-4.

Kyle Brady will be about 37 in 2009 - I see him a stop gap measure to pick up the duties of Daniel Graham while we look to pick up a long term replacement in this or next years draft.

Im pretty sure Rodney (as much as I hate to admit it) has 2 years at the most left in him and will most likely retire after this year if he gets another ring - he will also be 37 in 2009.

Hochstein is a jack-of-all-trades on the O-line - he provides decent cover at both guard positions (and centre, I think) - if we want him to stay beyond 2008 im sure he'll re-sign.

Cassell is a guy who does appear to have a touch of 'Schaubs' about him - he has looked very competent whenever he has taken the field - running Miami close on the final day of the 2005 season playing with the 2nd team. Hopefully we can get some trade value for him.

Ex-Steeler Josh Miller has been a great punter for us, but suffered an injury last year that put him on IR - i'd like to see him back this year (now that Sauerbrun has gone to Denver) he is top of the depth chart. But he'll be 39 in 2009 - there isn't much call for a 40 year old punter is there?

Heath Evans is a solid FB/RB - picked him up as a Miami reject but without being too harsh : life will go on with out him in 2009.

James Sanders has shown flashes of ability at SS - he is the heir apprent to Rodney's throne but hasn't quite convinced yet. This will be a big year for him and will determine how much money the Patriots put on the table for him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
* in 09 the only starters from last year (06) who presently have a contract are t. brady, s. gostkowski, ellis hobbes, nick kaczur, dan koppen, matt light, logan mankins, laurence maroney, a. thomas, stephen neal, seymour, vrabel, (welker/stallworth?), wilfork. ouch!
Hmmm. That looks like a solid bunch to have signed up 3 years into the future - Franchise QB, Kicker, the whole of the starting offensive line is signed (thats pretty impressive, I think), starting RB, both starting OLB's, starting DE, and our starting DT/NT.

I actually think this shouldn't be filed under 'ouch' but under 'thats pretty scary for other teams'.

We have two more drafts, with plenty of high round draft picks to fill in the gaps as we go - I wouldn't bet aginst us doing it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
the good news is, the patriots can try to trade alot of these players for 1st round picks. the bad news is, after the seattle/ d. branch deal, other teams may not want to be the 2nd sucker.
We'll get a better look at the value of the Branch deal this year, I think - the system in Seattle should suit him if Hasselbeck can stay fit.

As I mentioned, the Patriots drafted alot of these top-notch players because they are very good at doing just that.

Starting with next year we have two 1st rounders - given the Patriots recent history with drafts they will both probably be starters in 2009.

Then there are picks in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc etc - maybe we even hit a 6th round jackpot again?

AtlantaDan pointed out yesterday how teams have always overpaid for guys on a 'winning team' - he used the example of Neil O'Donnell - this has always been the case and probably always will be.

For every team like the Patriots there is a team like the Redskins/Falcons just around the corner waiting to buy a little of that magic dust.
__________________
They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
Livinginthe past is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2007, 01:14 PM   #7
Elvis
Banned
 
Elvis's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NC
Posts: 3,645
Gender: Male
Member Number: 2390
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

I honestly believe the Patriots are playing for right now or the next 2 years at the most...
Elvis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2007, 01:27 PM   #8
tony hipchest
IRONMAN a.k.a. Tony Stark
Supporter
 
tony hipchest's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Give me back my game...
Posts: 40,302
Member Number: 658
Thanks: 2,313
Thanked 10,361 Times in 4,303 Posts
Default Re: Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

i wouldnt expect nothing less than an optomistic outlook, litp.

however, theres a growing trend of players playing for a fraction of what their peers are getting, becomming disgruntled. winning a ring is no longer incentive enough to take a hometown discount (randle el, hope, kimo) in free agent years, but players now want to opt out of the final years of their contracts w/o even becoming a fa.

the piece of the free agent/salary cap increase pie, looks so tasty, an incresing number of players will forgo a better opportunity for a ring, for a slice of it. and its not just faneca and porter. youve seen it with branch and samuel. lance briggs, doesnt want to return to a team that was in the superbowl. look at all the colts role players who coulda possible found themselves starting due to injury, that decided to seek greener pastures. surely d. rhodes had a better shot at another ring with the colts rather than the raiders. isnt it fair to assume that if lance briggs wants brian urlacher money, that ty warren will want richard seymore money? do the pats really want nearly $30 mil tied up in their d-linemen, and an additional $15 mil in the qb? thats about 1/3 of the projected cap. sure brady can restructure, but do you want to see him go out like steve mcnair?

one big similarity in cowhers and 'chicks coaching style is the willingness to delegate alot of the leadership roles to the players. brady, harrison, seymore and bruschi are undisputed leaders on the field, just as porter, hope, and jerome were for the steelers. while the patriots could probably replace bruschi, harrison, or possibly colvin or vrabel, all at once with better talent, it could possibly lead to the same cracks the steelers saw with the exodus of jerome, hope, kimo, and el. i look at alot of sloppy fumbles w. parker had last year (especially the one in the endzone the final game of the year) and it could be the difference of someone on the field telling him "now go punch it in", vs jerome telling him "just be sure to hold on to the ball". sometimes regaining focus is that simple and can mean the difference of winning/ losing a game, or even worse making/ not making the playoffs.

another difference, from the pats superbowl run is now there are 3 pats assistant coaches who are now head coaches who have a better chance of cherry picking talent. there are definitely challenges that lie ahead, that the patriots havent quite faced. you would like to think the attitudes of jerome or bruschi would rub off on all players, and youd like to thik assistants like grimm and whiz wouldnt make it enticing for players to leave, but it happens. and really if being a champion is the main goal of a football player, becomming rich is a close second. the pats have alot of champions who arent rich. if fielding a team full of the randy moss's of the league is the answer to remain competitive, id be a little concerned in a year or 3.
__________________
tony hipchest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2007, 01:41 PM   #9
tony hipchest
IRONMAN a.k.a. Tony Stark
Supporter
 
tony hipchest's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Give me back my game...
Posts: 40,302
Member Number: 658
Thanks: 2,313
Thanked 10,361 Times in 4,303 Posts
Default Re: Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

i didnt really think the patscap dudes numbers were right concerning dillon. i assumed he knew more than me and figured it had to do with him retiring, but as it looks, he is no longer counting dillons base salary along with the hit of signing bonus. this puts his situation more in line with duce staleys. but the patriots still have to pay off the remainder of dillons signing bonus, and from what i understand it hast to be paid off this year.

Quote:
According to my figures the Patriots' 2007 cap figure is $104,159,942 with 86 players signed or presumed tendered. The salary cap is $109,134,000. The Patriots' adjusted cap is $113,005,580. Therefore, if my calcuations were correct AND they are not, the Pats would be under their adjusted cap by around $8.85 million. On 4/11 Len Pasquarelli reported that the Patriots were under the cap by $6.3 million. My numbers were off then by around $1.7 million then so I think that the Pats are ACTUALLY under the cap by around 6.75 million. I believe that my numbers are off because a couple of Patriot players have unreported LTBE incentives. Please note that on 6/2/2007 Dillon's 2007 dead money hit will drop from $4,422,500 to $1,922,500 because his 2007 $2.5 million salary will no longer count against the cap. Therefore, the Pats will gain $2.5 million in cap space on that date.
__________________
tony hipchest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 08:59 PM   #10
revefsreleets
Living Legend
 
revefsreleets's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Akron, Ohio Home of LeBron James
Posts: 15,403
Gender: Male
Member Number: 5353
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Patriots- One Final Run or Built for the Future?

Can it be both? It might be. If the team implodes from ego overload, they have a bunch of players who other teams will pay dearly for with draft picks and stuff. But if the team has great success and wins the Super Bowl this year, they can pretty much do the same but only for a lot more over-inflated value. Look at how much teams were willing to overpay for role players on the Steelers teams over the last few years just because the team won!
__________________
Official Steelersfever Arians Nuthugger
revefsreleets is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.1 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.0.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Navbar with Avatar by Motorradforum
no new posts