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Old 06-26-2007, 07:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

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It's sad to see this. I hope not too many fans actually think this way. This isn't pro wrestling. Stewart should have a win. Hamlin should have a win. Kahne should have a win. Teams need to click on all cylinders and have great luck to win a Cup. It's the little things that steal wins and rob teams of championships, and Rouch and Hendrick do all the things, big and little, that it takes to win.

.
see... i just remember the days when any manufaturer got an edge nascar would step in and "level the playing field". this was especially seen when non chevy teams were "clicking on all cylinders".

dont believe me? look at the last time 3 fords finished in the top 5 of the daytona 500. i think it was 98-00 when dale jarrett won and rusty and jeremy mayfield (fords) rounded out the top 5 with b. labonte (pontiac) and dale sr. (chevy), although that could be the top 5 in the year dale won it. anyways, the point is, dale sr. single handedly got rules changed cause he couldnt run up front at daytona and the fords could:

dale sr. was pissed he couldnt pass the fords and pretty much said it was bullshit and that "bill france sr. was rolling over in his grave". within weeks spiolers were increased and wicker bills added to the roofs to "level the playing field" even though fords just had better teams with roush, penske, and yates at the time. 3 fords havent finished in the top 5 of that race since. where was nascar the year jeff gordon won his st 500 with team mates terry labonte and rickey craven rounding out the top 3?

i know nascar isnt scripted like WWE but they know where their bread is buttered, just like the nfl does, and both know how to protect its "star players". same reason adam jones and chris henry are still employed and tank johnson is looking for work. earnhardt and gordon put fans in the seats. examples are made of the "lesser players".

still dont believe me? nascar teams are restricted to 3 cars. rousch has been running 5 and hendrick 4.

isnt chad knauss a repeat offender? maybe increasing the penalties for repeat cheaters will get the point across. you dont see the p[enske teams busted for cheating like this. then again roger has said anyone on his team deliberately cheating will be fired

but yeah, "if youre not cheating, youre not trying"
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Old 06-26-2007, 07:33 PM   #12
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

Your own arguments answer why NASCAR is going to the COT. They had to mess with the noses and spoilers all the time on all the cars because aero became so important. As the templates drifted further and further from stock, it became harder and harder for NASCAR to keep up. I think the Monte Carlo a few years ago was engineered as a race car first and the true "stock" car was the result of what was street legal. There was time not so long ago when set-up was all that mattered, and Evernham/Gordon ruled the NASCAR world. The answer to end that dominance was even more aero changes. There really is no conspiracy. Just a couple years ago the sports two biggest draws both missed the chase. If there was a conspiracy or even a spirit of "competitive edge for the fan favorites" NASCAR would have found a way to get Gordon and JR into the chase.

As for Penske, he seems especially adept at cheating, it seems to me. Ryan Newman used to get about 5 MPG when all the other drivers got 4 MPG. They just never caught him. He also seems to have a penchant for hiring less than savory drivers. Newman is hardly Mr. personality, and, although Busch has worked really hard to change his image, he's hardly a boy scout. I guess my problem is that I can't look at the series through a jaundiced eye, since I don't really have a favorite driver or team or hate any driver or team. Maybe if i was a little more biased, i could envision some vast conspiracy, but it just isn't there.
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Old 06-26-2007, 07:38 PM   #13
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

Oh, and the team rule is 4 cars, and that was pushed back to 2009, probably for Roush.
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Old 06-26-2007, 07:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

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Your own arguments answer why NASCAR is going to the COT. They had to mess with the noses and spoilers all the time on all the cars because aero became so important. As the templates drifted further and further from stock, it became harder and harder for NASCAR to keep up. I think the Monte Carlo a few years ago was engineered as a race car first and the true "stock" car was the result of what was street legal. There was time not so long ago when set-up was all that mattered, and Evernham/Gordon ruled the NASCAR world. The answer to end that dominance was even more aero changes. There really is no conspiracy. Just a couple years ago the sports two biggest draws both missed the chase. If there was a conspiracy or even a spirit of "competitive edge for the fan favorites" NASCAR would have found a way to get Gordon and JR into the chase.

As for Penske, he seems especially adept at cheating, it seems to me. Ryan Newman used to get about 5 MPG when all the other drivers got 4 MPG. They just never caught him. He also seems to have a penchant for hiring less than savory drivers. Newman is hardly Mr. personality, and, although Busch has worked really hard to change his image, he's hardly a boy scout. I guess my problem is that I can't look at the series through a jaundiced eye, since I don't really have a favorite driver or team or hate any driver or team. Maybe if i was a little more biased, i could envision some vast conspiracy, but it just isn't there.
go figure. jr. and gordon miss the 10 car cut (in a year all 5 roush drivers make it) for the chase and tony stewart misses it last year. what does nascar do? its now a 12 car cut. = changed rules.

ryan newman was cheating and team hendrick is just "hitting on all cylindars"????

i dont know what driver personality has to do with all of this. kurt bush was a dick who almost ran over a pit crew member and was appropriately fined.

i understand that the monte carlo is a cool car, but im talking more about the days of the lumina, grand prix, and thunderbird, before "aero push" was a catchphrase in nascar. chevys (especially hendrick cars) were struggling pretty bad with the aero push here in the past few years, especially when they got caught back in traffic. of course that problem has been remedied with the COT.

go figure.
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:15 PM   #15
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

You think the COT was to appease Hendrick? Why? They were dominant, then NASCAR changed the rules and they were dominant again (You do know that if NASCAR would not have implemented the new point system, Jeff Gordon, not Kurt Busch would have won the 2005 Nextel Cup, right?). The old system worked fine for Hendrick. After all, who won last years Cup?

Killer thinks the COT is IROC. That's a good argument, too. If the cars are all even and exactly the same, then the best drivers with the best crews should win. I mean, it's either one way or the other, not whichever way supports your position.

I'm not trying to be controversial or anything, just asking you to look at it as an unbiased observer would. Which is the simpler answer? Vast conspiracy that really doesn't fit any existing data, or sport changing and evolving and experiencing a few growing pains?
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

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You think the COT was to appease Hendrick? Why? They were dominant, then NASCAR changed the rules and they were dominant again (You do know that if NASCAR would not have implemented the new point system, Jeff Gordon, not Kurt Busch would have won the 2005 Nextel Cup, right?). The old system worked fine for Hendrick. After all, who won last years Cup?
i didnt say the COT was to appease hendrick (it is for safety and to *snicker* "keep costs down")

the COT certainly hasnt hurt hendrick though, now has it? have you heard of hendrick battling the dreaded "aero push" in any of the COT races?

likewise, i didnt say the move from 10 cars making the chase to 12 was to appease hendrick either but the intent was certqainly to prevent another driver like gordon, dale jr. or reigning champion like tony stewart from missing the chase.

you may say you dont have any rooting interests but your defense of team hendrick seems mighty suspicious. if it came down to me just rooting for my favorite manufacturers, i would probably be a chevy fan. but this goes beyond what car i'd drive. ive listed plenty of examples where rules were implememted that benefited chevy teams and their drivers. is it ALL coincidence? possibly. feel free to offer up any recent rules changes to benefit any of the other manufacturers or stars (my limited knowledge and recollection only takes me back to 93)
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Old 06-26-2007, 09:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

I stick by what NASCAR is doing with the COT. Killer is mostly right. There will be no aero advantage for any manufacturer. And the COT will keep costs down. If nothing else, the days of the sloped car for oval courses is gone. Smaller teams will be happy to save on the development costs. IROC is too extreme of an example, though.

Engine programs and set-up advantages aren't going anywhere. The teams with the most money will be able to provide the best situations to attract the best drivers. But NOTHING can change fate. Remember Gordon dominating Martinsville a few years ago then hitting a giant pot hole? That's the kind of bad luck that can ruin a championship run. Kahne has expereinced it this year.

As far as your argument about rule changes, I recommend Jayski's. It will shed great light on all the rule changes in the last 15 years. You'll find that most of the changes benefit teams that DON'T have a bow tie on the bumper.
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Old 06-26-2007, 09:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

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I stick by what NASCAR is doing with the COT. Killer is mostly right. There will be no aero advantage for any manufacturer. And the COT will keep costs down. If nothing else, the days of the sloped car for oval courses is gone. Smaller teams will be happy to save on the development costs. IROC is too extreme of an example, though.

Engine programs and set-up advantages aren't going anywhere. The teams with the most money will be able to provide the best situations to attract the best drivers. But NOTHING can change fate. Remember Gordon dominating Martinsville a few years ago then hitting a giant pot hole? That's the kind of bad luck that can ruin a championship run. Kahne has expereinced it this year.

As far as your argument about rule changes, I recommend Jayski's. It will shed great light on all the rule changes in the last 15 years. You'll find that most of the changes benefit teams that DON'T have a bow tie on the bumper.
and i stick by what NASCAR is doing by fining known cheaters. i dont think jayskis is gonna help you on this one, just like it didnt help you on the last one. if you have any specifics to bring to the table feel free to do so. i already have.

im still waiting on ANYTYHING to support the crazy assertion that newman was cheating.

"5 mpg vs. 4 mpg"???? did jayskis tell you that?
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

Wow. I'm kind of surprised by your "argument". You are stating that, just because you said so, NASCAR has favored Chevy over the years, without providing source material or links or anything, and backing this up by citing this years penalties, which I've already shown have been pretty fair and across the board (unless you are now stating that NASCAR didn't actually penalize the teams that they penalized).

I was exaggerating on Newman, but the point remains. He found a way to get better gas mileage then anyone else, and I assume, as you do, that he did so within the rules, but what if he didn't? What if he did cheat? And NASCAR wasn't able to catch it at the time? Does that somehow make him better than the cheaters that didn't get caught?

And, as far as Chevy, I just checked, and almost half the field at New Hampshire will be Chevy. Isn't it possible that Chevy, being the predominant manufacturer, would have the most wins? Are Ford, Dodge and Toyota completely incompetent?
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma

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Wow. I'm kind of surprised by your "argument". You are stating that, just because you said so, NASCAR has favored Chevy over the years, without providing source material or links or anything, and backing this up by citing this years penalties, which I've already shown have been pretty fair and across the board (unless you are now stating that NASCAR didn't actually penalize the teams that they penalized).
i provided plenty of examples in my "argument". all you brought was telling me to visit a site ive visited plenty of times (its a good and reputable site). do you have any specifics other than your "exaggeration" about newman?

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I was exaggerating on Newman, but the point remains. He found a way to get better gas mileage then anyone else, and I assume, as you do, that he did so within the rules, but what if he didn't? What if he did cheat? And NASCAR wasn't able to catch it at the time? Does that somehow make him better than the cheaters that didn't get caught?
has newman and the #12 team ever been busted for cheating? if youre suggesting that every team is cheating then you agree with me that hendrick has been cheating all year, yet youre denying the fact that they have been busted as cheaters.

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And, as far as Chevy, I just checked, and almost half the field at New Hampshire will be Chevy. Isn't it possible that Chevy, being the predominant manufacturer, would have the most wins? Are Ford, Dodge and Toyota completely incompetent?
you mustve ignored everything ive posted. when fords were "adjusted" to "level the playing field" they were the majority of cars in the field. it would stand to reason a field full of fords with championship contending teams such as yates, rousch, and penske, would have more wins. dale sr. didnt see it that way and neither did nascar. the fact that chevys field half the cars nowadays, doesnt erase rule changes that were made in the past. infact it supports the fact that alot of start up teams realize their best chance of surviving is riding a manufacturer that has had NASCAR's "better interests" behind it.
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