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Old 07-03-2007, 07:36 PM   #101
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

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Originally Posted by HometownGal View Post
I'd put Lyndon Johnson way before either of them.
LJ probably would be ahead as well as Richard Nixon.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:55 PM   #102
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

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Well, the [insert obscenity of choice here] commuted Scooter Libby's sentence

This should remove any doubt that W really does think his Administration is above the law.

I have attempted to avoid vituperation in my descriptions of this gang, but they are inherently and totally corrupt - fish rots from the head down
Or...

The whole thing was seen as judicial tyranny and the president used his constitutional responsibilty to check the judicial branch...

it all depends on ones perspective.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:58 PM   #103
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

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atleast in your lifetime anyways. i remember when i was a little older than your age i was able to watch the ist Gulf War on tv like it was prime time entertainment.

i remember the admiration i had for schwartzkopf and powell as i was applying for rotc scholorships and acceptance to all the military academies. i remember the fear i had that we were possibly starting WWIII by taking on 1 of the largest armies in the world. and as we methodically crushed the opposition, i remember the huge disappointment when we didnt finish the job, despite the generals advice, and wondered what kind of message that would send to our enemies. i wondered if they thought of us as "soft" and "weak".

honestly, i dont even know where i would rank G-dub in regards to his father.
I dunno about Bush 41& "finishing" the Gulf War - the UN mandate and financing of the war by Japan, Inc. & the Saudis was to free Kuwait, not to overthrow Sadaam.

Back in the day, when he appeared to be sane, then Secretary of Defense Cheney was asked about going to Baghdad and replied that getting there was not the problem; it was what to do after you arrived.

And the question in my mind is how many additional American casualties is Saddam worth?" Cheney said then in response to a question.

"And the answer is not very damned many. So I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the president made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq."


Going to Baghdad, Cheney said in 1992, would require a much different approach militarily than fighting in the open desert outside the capital, a type of warfare that U.S. troops were not familiar, or comfortable fighting.

"All of a sudden you've got a battle you're fighting in a major built-up city, a lot of civilians are around, significant limitations on our ability to use our most effective technologies and techniques," Cheney said.

"Once we had rounded him up and gotten rid of his government, then the question is what do you put in its place? You know, you then have accepted the responsibility for governing Iraq."


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation..._cheney29.html

Too bad he did not figure out an answer to that question in the intervening 12 years
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:07 PM   #104
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

We all need to realize one thing...

Washington and Jefferson would look at our government now... Repub. and Dem....

And just shake thier heads.
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:14 PM   #105
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

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Or...

The whole thing was seen as judicial tyranny and the president used his constitutional responsibilty to check the judicial branch...

it all depends on ones perspective.
yep, being convicted by your peers sure is judicial tyranny...

"It is fundamental to the rule of law that all citizens stand before the bar of justice as equals. That principle guided the judge during both the trial and the sentencing." patrick fitzgerald

i'm almost sure it's un-american to not share that perspective... and yet bush snubbed that very fundamental principle commuting scooters sentence...
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:18 PM   #106
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

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yep, being convicted by your peers sure is judicial tyranny...

"It is fundamental to the rule of law that all citizens stand before the bar of justice as equals. That principle guided the judge during both the trial and the sentencing." patrick fitzgerald

i'm almost sure it's un-american to not share that perspective... and yet bush snubbed that very fundamental principle commuting scooters sentence...
There have been MANY examples of jury's making mistakes...

Kind of funny how we want to uphold the law... but not the part of the law that allows the president to commute sentences...

And no, I was NOT one of those screaming about Clinton doing the same. It was part of the constitution.
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:22 PM   #107
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

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Or...

The whole thing was seen as judicial tyranny and the president used his constitutional responsibilty to check the judicial branch...

it all depends on ones perspective.
Bush political appointee James Comey named Bush political appointee and career prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald to investigate the Plame leak. Bush political appointee and career prosecutor Fitzgerald filed an indictment and went to trial before Bush political appointee Reggie Walton. A jury convicted Libby, and Bush political appointee Walton sentenced him. At sentencing, Bush political appointee Walton described the evidence against Libby as "overwhelming" and concluded that a 30-month sentence was appropriate. But your perspective is that the Libby prosecution was the work of judicial tyrants who were just trying to hurt the Bush Administration?

Of course it depends on one's perspective, but there are certain guidelines in place for imposing sentences and commuting sentences:
United States Attorney's Manual Standards for Consideration of Clemency Petitions

The comments and recommendations of concerned and knowledgeable officials, particularly the United States Attorney whose office prosecuted the case and the sentencing judge, are carefully considered

Requests for commutation generally are not accepted unless and until a person has begun serving that sentence. Nor are commutation requests generally accepted from persons who are presently challenging their convictions or sentences through appeal or other court proceeding.

Generally, commutation of sentence is an extraordinary remedy that is rarely granted. Appropriate grounds for considering commutation have traditionally included disparity or undue severity of sentence, critical illness or old age, and meritorious service rendered to the government by the petitioner, e.g., cooperation with investigative or prosecutive efforts that has not been adequately rewarded by other official action
"

http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/petitions.htm

Guess who followed the guidelines and who did not in this case?.

In the words of that great philosopher Kenny Rodgers, "you got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away and know when to run."

Your loyalty in attempting to defend the indefensible is admirable, but at some point you might consider keeping your powder dry for more winnable arguments to come.

Last edited by Atlanta Dan; 07-03-2007 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:26 PM   #108
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

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I'd put Lyndon Johnson way before either of them.


LBJ and his successor Richard Nixon have to be up (or down) there - these are grim times but for those of us old enough to remember the late 60s (urban riots every summer, Bobby & Martin killed in 1968, tens of thousands of American boys killed in Vietnam) the current disputes are a day at the beach.
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:27 PM   #109
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

sure, jury's make mistakes, that's what appeals are for.... and the fact that two of the judges in the appeals court were republican makes the "tyranny" remark moot.
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:30 PM   #110
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Default Re: White House, Cheney's Office Subpoenaed

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Originally Posted by Atlanta Dan View Post
Bush political appointee James Comey named Bush political appointee and career prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald to investigate the Plame leak. Bush political appointee and career prosecutor Fitzgerald filed an indictment and went to trial before Bush political appointee Reggie Walton. A jury convicted Libby, and Bush political appointee Walton sentenced him. At sentencing, Bush political appointee Walton described the evidence against Libby as "overwhelming" and concluded that a 30-month sentence was appropriate. But your perspective is that the Libby prosecution was the work of judicial tyrants who were just trying to hurt the Bush Administration?

Of course it depends on one's perspective, but there are certain guidelines in place for imposing sentences and commuting sentences:


United States Attorney's Manual Standards for Consideration of Clemency Petitions


The Pardon Attorney routinely requests the United States Attorney in the district of conviction to provide comments and recommendations on clemency cases that appear to have some merit, as well as on cases that raise issues of fact about which the United States Attorney may be in a position to provide information.

"Requests for commutation generally are not accepted unless and until a person has begun serving that sentence."


http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/petitions.htm

Guess who followed the guidelines and who did not in this case?.

In the words of that great philosopher Kenny Rodgers, "you got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away and know when to run."

Your loyalty in attempting to defend the indefensible is admirable, but at some point you might consider keeping your powder dry for more winnable arguments to come.
Dan,

I respect you...

So I am going to stop replying... because in my opinion, over the last few days in political discussions... it has just become WAY to overboard...

When anyone sees demons in every closet, evil in every face, and witches in every cave, it is time to take a breath...

And that is really what I feel is going on here...

This whole discussion has become WAY too polarized... a snap shot of the country at large... My evidence for that is in this very thread... where I have condemned this president myself... Yet still am being painted as defending him, instead of making a logical argument...


Gotta wonder though... What is the possibility of one of the Bengals getting a pardon?
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