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Old 07-08-2007, 04:28 AM   #31
Livinginthe past
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest
the rankings arent based on where TE's are drafted
So, in terms of the TE's drafted this year, how exactly would you rank them?

When none of the top 3 TE's chosen have actually played a down in the NFL why should the No.3 guy be 'arguably the best'.

They are all 'arguably the best' at this point - depending on your viewpoint.

Quote:
it was. last year was a weak class for wr's too. didnt seem to effect s. holmes or m. coulstons performance
The exceptions don't prove the rule. A weak looking class remains just that ,and isn't affected by players drafted for another position the year before.

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why even draft players if theyre not a factor? good players selected are always a factor. just ask r. bush and v. young. (didnt you cite v. young and his go to TE?
You misunderstand.

Im not saying that they wont turn out to be a factor but there is no way to actually predict how these guys are going to play in the NFL - its where the term 'bust' derives from - players that 'should have made it but didn't'.

Both guys you noted were high 1st round impact players - not exactly the same thing as a 3rd round TE.

For every Reggie Bush there is a bunch of Akili Smith's and Ryan Leaf's.

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so intangibles have nothing to do with who may be the best unit? i will contend blocking is a very important job and is a great barometer of who may have the best unit. i wont give spaeth all the credit for l. maroney or m. barber jr.'s success in the nfl but he definitely helped them get noticed.
Intangible just means its not typically measured for ease of comparison - unless you are some type of football obsesssive then I don't see how you can be aware of how the TE's for each of the 32 teams block on a regular basis (or even how much they are expected to block)

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looks like plenty of scouts saw enough of footage of spaeth to have him ranked where he was. i trust the steelers scouts, much in the same way patriot fans trust belichick and pioli. i'll take my chancesw with their judgement being that i have never scouted spaeth
Sure, the Steelers coaches have a good succes rate, no argument there but what is Pittsburghs success rate at drafting and utilising TE's recently?

Not good, I would suggest.

Its a little like trying to convince people that the Patriots have had some great FB's the last 5/6 years - its just that we run out of a spread formation alot of the time so you don't get to see how great they really are.

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hes so good the patriots went out and got an old journeyman named kyle brady
Brady would be the 'Tuman' in the Steelers line-up. We 'went out and got Brady' because we lost a great blocking TE to Denver.

I'll put my hands up and say I haven't seen enough of Brady or Tuman to say 'who is the best'.

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upside is upside. miller has plenty. k. brady has zero
Agreed.

100%.

However, im not comparing Miller to Brady - I would compare him to Ben Watson.

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i know enough to say their #3 ranking is justified
Well then. Why don't you share with us this 'insider knowledge' of the new coach and how he plans to utilise the TE's?

Are we going to see more spread formations or more 2 TE sets? How many catches do they envisage for Spaeth this year?

Quote:
watson will "regress" in 07. he's not in an offense that will fully utilize his skills, and even if he were the patriots will not pay gonzales or gates money to a TE. argue that point all you want, but the "patriot way" says he will not exceed his best year which was last year. he has 7 career td's. sorry if im not impressed.
Well this remains to be seen. In a FF thread I remarked that Watsons value could go either way this year with all the arrivals at WR - it could open up more space and make him the 'open guy' alot more.

Or he could spend alot of time watching the ball winging its way to Stalllworth, Moss and Welker.

What I would suggest is that he won't be double teamed all year, like he was last year.

With Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes on the team - I very much doubt if Miller was double teamed on a regular basis last year?

Was he?

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it is when you are singing the praises of how great clark and utecht is
Again, college production is only an indicator of what to expect anf NFL level - no guarantees.

I'll go with pro production that exists somewhere other than the future.

Quote:
he is a better blocker because he blocks the defender better than utecht. dont base your opinion soley on how he helped slow down an aging and tired patriots pass rush in the afc champ game. about 100 nfl scouts would agree with me. check the sources i provided you in my previous post.
Maybe so. Maybe not. I guess we'll see once they have both started a pro-game.

Quote:
yes. infact, i am willing to bet the colts had spaeth ranked higher than an UDFA on their boards and would gladly trade utecht for him if offered.
Ok its a bet. Now are you going to phone the Colts F.O. or am I?

Adalius Thomas was a 6th round draft pick - you saying that the Patriots would swap him for a LBer taken in the 2nd or 3rd round of this years draft?

Pro production > rookie draft position - everytime

Quote:
as a starter, miller has more playoff experience than watson, more playoff wins, and more superbowl experience. other than hopes, and dreams, and perceived potential, what do you possibly have to suggest hes better than miller (as a receiver)? theres no question hes a better blocker.
Personally, I think Watson and Miller are very closely matched - Miller has more TD's as pointed out earlier in the thread by Fansince'76.

But Watson, over the last 2 years that Miller has also been on the league,. has caught for 250 extra yards and been double teamed on a regular basis.

The reason I think the Steelers are too high at 3 is that they have 1 good TE, a rookie and a guy who has caught an average of 5 passes a year since he joined the NFL.

Maybe Tuman is one of those great blocking TE's we just haven't heard about outside of Pittsburgh - but then most teams have an anonymous blocking TE who you 'haven't heard about'.

Which is exactly why I don't have to know a great deal about who is the 3rd TE on those teams I ranked above the Steelers.
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:48 AM   #32
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the Tight Ends

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Originally Posted by wedosesteelers2006 View Post
Does slipping a bit mean that you still caught 73 passes for 900 yards and 5 tds?
I hope that Heath Miller slips enough this upcoming season to catch atleast that many .. to help take some pressure off of Hines and Holmes...
actually ..Gonzo's TD and total receptions totals were the second lowest he has had in the past 9 years so the statement stands as correct....AND I dont think ANYONE can deny that any talented TE would have put up exagerated numbers in Kansas City over the past 12 years due to the lack of a legitimate WR over that time. Most of K.C.'s #1 WR's would be #3 WR's on good teams.
Not taking anything from Gonzo ..I love him for FF...but most teams that have a TE with that type of production is almost always thin at WR. He isnt "taking pressure off his WR's" as much as he is compensating for his WR's
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:38 AM   #33
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the Tight Ends

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Originally Posted by lamberts-lost-tooth View Post
actually ..Gonzo's TD and total receptions totals were the second lowest he has had in the past 9 years so the statement stands as correct....AND I dont think ANYONE can deny that any talented TE would have put up exagerated numbers in Kansas City over the past 12 years due to the lack of a legitimate WR over that time. Most of K.C.'s #1 WR's would be #3 WR's on good teams.
Not taking anything from Gonzo ..I love him for FF...but most teams that have a TE with that type of production is almost always thin at WR. He isnt "taking pressure off his WR's" as much as he is compensating for his WR's
Thats a fair point.

I've noticed before that teams with weak WR corps often have a TE who puts up good numbers - San Diego and Atlanta would be two good examples.
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The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 07-08-2007, 09:31 AM   #34
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the Tight Ends

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Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post
Thats a fair point.

I've noticed before that teams with weak WR corps often have a TE who puts up good numbers - San Diego and Atlanta would be two good examples.
..and all three teams RB's benefit with the increase responibilities in the run game. With those three teams you have.... 3 teams with TE's that put up big numbers....three teams with great ground games....but 3 teams without one "premier" reciever out of their starting 6 WR's
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:24 AM   #35
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the Tight Ends

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Originally Posted by lamberts-lost-tooth View Post
..and all three teams RB's benefit with the increase responibilities in the run game. With those three teams you have.... 3 teams with TE's that put up big numbers....three teams with great ground games....but 3 teams without one "premier" reciever out of their starting 6 WR's
You would think that the target for those teams would be to draft a talented WR in the early rounds (1 or 2) - San Diego took that step this year with Meachem but he is something of an injury worry.

This way they get production from a WR and also at a relatively cheap cost - of course drafting WR's in the early rounds has been a dangerous pass-time for various GM's through the years.
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

san diego - craig davis
new orleans - robert meachum
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Old 07-08-2007, 11:22 AM   #37
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the Tight Ends

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Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post
You would think that the target for those teams would be to draft a talented WR in the early rounds (1 or 2) - San Diego took that step this year with Meachem but he is something of an injury worry.

This way they get production from a WR and also at a relatively cheap cost - of course drafting WR's in the early rounds has been a dangerous pass-time for various GM's through the years.
For about 5 years in a row I predicted K.C. to draft a stud WR....this year I gave up and who do they draft????...WR Dwayne Bowe.

Based on those trends (in regards to teams with weaker WR's getting monster production from a talented TE)..we may see the rookie at Chicago being a legit threat this year...or at least the beginning of a threat
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Old 07-08-2007, 12:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the Tight Ends

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For about 5 years in a row I predicted K.C. to draft a stud WR....this year I gave up and who do they draft????...WR Dwayne Bowe.

Based on those trends (in regards to teams with weaker WR's getting monster production from a talented TE)..we may see the rookie at Chicago being a legit threat this year...or at least the beginning of a threat
as long as grossman is the qb, nobody in chicago's passing game will be a threat....
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Old 07-08-2007, 12:57 PM   #39
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends

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san diego - craig davis
new orleans - robert meachum
Thx MOP - for some reason I thought Meacham was in San Diego
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The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 07-08-2007, 01:18 PM   #40
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Default Re: SN- Ranking the Tight Ends

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as long as grossman is the qb, nobody in chicago's passing game will be a threat....
That's why they drafted leak
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