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Old 08-03-2007, 07:48 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

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Originally Posted by j-dawg View Post
good insight.. can't argue. Luke, however, is with Tampa Bay.
Yup, I did look him up on NFL.com - I reckon he'll still be a back-up there too
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 08-03-2007, 07:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

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Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
Alright, then, I'll elaborate.

The Steelers 2004 draft class was an A, and it's easy to justify. The Steelers typically take risks up front and backload with role guys that they believe they can develop. There have been a lot of busts in the last 10 years, but those busts were mitigated by quality finds in the later rounds, but almost always those were guys who were allowed to develop without all the pressure of being high round picks. In 2004, the Steelers went above board and made 3 high profile picks, not the least of which was Ricardo Colclough, who was considered a reach by some but impressed many in his post-collegiate performances.

Coke looks like a bust to the outsider and the uninformed "insider", but by all accounts, he was having an impressive camp last year and was challenging for a starting CB role when he was injured. He needs an extra year because he, like Ike, came from a small school. I expect to see great things from both him and Starks this year, and I've made no secret about my feelings about Ben's still untapped potential. If you have a draft where the top 3 picks are starters it's a good draft. If these guys recognize their potential (and they need to do it this year), it will have been a great draft.
I appreciate the insights/opinion - its better than bengal-smack right?

I'll be honest and say that I can't think of many SF posters (my only real contact with Steeler fans) hold Colclough in much regard - but then alot of fans can be very quick to jump to conclusions, especially when they've been spolit with such great players down the years.

Thats an interesting take on the 'small school' theory - and it sounds logical to me - we'll see how he plays this year maybe he can be the one to unseat Townsend.

As it stands you have 1 sure fire starter, 1 guy who has had a fire lit under his ass and one guy who has alot to prove to even get near a starters position.

I'll definitely be watching the season (and these particular sub-plots) with interest - if you end up right then I would definitely have to revise that grade upward most likely toward an A.
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 08-03-2007, 08:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

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Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets View Post
so cleveland, bungholes and steelers all found 2 every snap players, but the bunholes and clowns get b+,and the steelers get a c-.....
Yeah, I realise that - I just think that Starks is only an 'every-snap' player because the Steelers find themselves at a rare time of relative weakness in the O-line.

Quote:
So you think the steelers would have went 15-1 or won a sb with madox?
Definitely not, I rate Roethlisberger highly - at his peak he would have been my 2nd choice QB in a sudden death scenario (ahead of Manning).

My point was that its not fair to criticise the impact of a drafted player if he comes into a terrible set up - the Steelers were in a very good place when Roethlisberger arrived.

Quote:
2003 record 6 - 10 .....maddox......2004 15 - 1......ben ..... who considered them a playoff candidate after a 6 - 10 season ??
Well, for a start, I would have.

2000 9-7
2001 13-3
2002 10-5-1
2003 6-10

The Steelers had been there/thereabouts in the preceding 3 seasons - and had suffered only 3 losing seasons in the previous 12, and back-2-back losing season only once.

It seemed unlikely they would repeat the poor form of the previous year, but Ben performed way over expectations - teams normally suffer by having a rookie at the helm.
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 08-03-2007, 08:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

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Baltimore Ravens

This is a team with the reputation of hitting the jackpot when drafting defensive players, but second round pick Dwan Edwards has failed to solidify his place as a starter at DT/DE. Coming into 2006 there were concerns that the performance (or lack of) of the Baltimore D-line was adversely affecting the the productivity of the All-Star LBer corps - and Ray Lewis in particular.
Haloti Ngata was drafted in 2006 and became a mainstay at NT (3-4) and opportunities for Edwards decreased further.
3rd round WR Devard Darling must be considered a bust at this point, he hasn't started a single game in a team with a weak WR corps and has only 2 career receptions.
The remaining lower round draft picks (rds 5-7) are a mixture of players no longer with the team or who have failed to gain significant time as part of the rotation.

Grade E
Not much to say about this draft...it basically sucked.

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Cincinnati Bengals

1st round selection, RB Chris Perry has been plagued by injuries in his 3 years with the Bengals.
When fit has been used a change-of-pace back who is capable of catching the ball out of the backfield but his most successful year to date was 2005 and that only realised just over 600 yards.
Used primarily as a kick returner in 2006, and bearing in mind his replacement (Kenny Irons) was drafted this year, Perry has to be considered a high round bust.
Keiwan Ratliff (selected in the 2nd round) remains part of the DB rotation but doesn't look like beating out Deltha O'Neal any time soon.
Madieu Williams (2nd round pick from New England in Corey Dillon Trade) quickly established himself as a mainstay of the Bengals secondary.
Solid in both 2004 and 2006 (2005 was decimated due to injury) Cincinnati will be looking for Madieu to take the next step this year.
3rd round picks Caleb Miller and Landon Johnson are in the rotation at LBer, but the Bengals have long struggled in this area (leading to some unwise draft strategies regarding player character) - these guys need to step up their game this year.
Robert Geathers (4th round, DE) took a big step forward last year (and also left a large dent in Trent Green) while amassing 10.5 sacks mainly as a situational pass rusher.

Grade B+
Chris Perry had more upside than almost any other back in the 2004 draft, however he's been riddled with injuries and has become a borderline bust.

Keiwan Ratliff was a solid depth pick. He's not starter material because of his lack of speed, but he is very aware and plays well in the nickel, dime spots.

Madieu Williams is possibly the best player on the Bengals defense. When healthy, he has put up stats comparable to Reed and Polamalu.

Caleb Miller was also a solid depth pick. He'll never be a starter, but he's always played well when called upon and is a solid ST's guy.

Landon Johnson led the Bengals in tackles last year and will compete with Ed Hartwell for a starters spot again this year. One of the more underrated defenders on the Bengals team.

Robert Geathers put up 10.5 sacks last year as a situational pass rusher...he now moves into the full time starter role where he will look to improve upon that number.

I would also include the guard Stacy Andrews for the Bengals. He's been a reliable backup and could potentially push Whitworth for the left guard spot left by Eric Steinbach...at the very least he'll be first or second backup to the tackle and guard spots.

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Originally Posted by Livinginthe past View Post
Cleveland Browns

The selection of Kellen Winslow Jr dominates this teams draft - he is a guy who polarises opinion, some think he is an over-rated whiner living on his fathers name, others point to his 89 rec and almost 900 yards in 2006 and say he is ready to join the NFL TE elite.
Without a doubt, Winslow has maturity issues but last year he really stepped up his game despite having any back-up on the offensive side of the ball.
Second rounder, Sean Jones, has finally stepped to the starting SS - adding 111 tackles to a decent return of 5 INT's.
4th round QB Luke McCown has settled into the routine of being a serviceable NFL back-up and nothing more.
The rest of the draft sit on other teams benches

Grade B+
As dumb as he may be, Kellen Winslow has proved that he can be a primary option as a receiving TE. Not many other TE's not named Antonio or Tony can put up 89 receptions and close to 900 yards in a season.

Sean Jones is a player that gets little love because he plays for Cleveland, but he appears to be one of the up-and-coming safeties in the league.

Luke McCown does appear to be a decent back-up, but then again, he's not with Cleveland anymore.

I would've liked to have seen more depth from Cleveland's draft to warrant a B+, I would say B- or B.

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Pittsburgh Steelers

Ben Roethlisberger was Pittsburghs first genuine attempt in a long time to draft a franchise level player at the QB position. Almost continous success for the first two years of his career, Roethlisberger flourished in a system that surrounded him with a strong defense and powerful running game.
His second year, especially the postseason, proved Ben could put the team on his shoulders when required and lead them home - his awful SB performance tends to overshadow the good work he did getting Pittsburgh there in the first place.
Year 3 contained many elements seemingly designed to bring him back down to earth - one major accident followed by other injuries, poor form when he did take the field and a HC rumored to be less motivated than usual.
2006 is the anomaly in Bens career and should remain that way.
2nd round DB Ricardo Colclough has failed to impress in his time in Pittsburgh, and confidence has dropped to the point where even ST duties are beyond him.
3rd round OT Max Starks has tremendous tangibles but lacks consistency - Pittsburgh is a tough place to be an O-lineman where it has resembled a conveyor belt of highly paid Pro-bowlers at most positions.
Beyond this, the picks made in round 5-7 have results in very close to zero output - most of these guys are either not in the league or inhabit practice squad places.

Grade C-
I think that's a fair grade...only the first 3 rounds produced players that have been able to make the active roster.

Ben Roethlisberger is obviously the highlight and the franchise quarterback that the organization had been looking for. However, Ben still has the questions surrounding his health/composure due to last season. Either way, it's still a very good pick.

Ricardo Coclough has shown flashes but hasn't shown enough consistency to compete for a starter's role.

Max Starks is starting on the o-line, but he has obviously been the weak link. He will have to start making strides to improve his field awareness if he wants to remain a starter.

Overall, I think the Bengals had the best draft as far as depth goes. 6 solid contributors to the team, including 3 starters.

The Steelers obviously had the best overall pick in Ben Roethlisberger.
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Old 08-03-2007, 09:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

I just fail to understand how a QB can have; not arguably, but factually, the best first few years of any quarterback in NFL history and have his draft class (even if the other rounds were not spectacular) receive a 'C-'. Kellen Winslow is an excellent pass catcher but poor at everything else... Trash talking, blocking, durability... Hell, the guy hasn't had a season without an injury (most season ending) heading into his fourth year. Even if the Browns had a far superior draft beyond the second round (which they didn't) this grade still doesn't make much sense.

PS: Canstop85, go to a Bengals board... I understand that there are not many… Even fewer active and/or with intelligent posters who aren’t expressing their love for the Bungals from jail... But seriously...
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Old 08-03-2007, 09:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

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PS: Canstop85, go to a Bengals board... I understand that there are not many? Even fewer active and/or with intelligent posters who aren?t expressing their love for the Bungals from jail... But seriously...
Uh....no.

If my presence offends you in any way, you could very well find another Steelers board. How about you keep being you, I'll keep being me, and maybe one day we can all be friends.
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Old 08-04-2007, 02:24 AM   #17
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

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Uh....no.

If my presence offends you in any way, you could very well find another Steelers board. How about you keep being you, I'll keep being me, and maybe one day we can all be friends.



That was too sweetly sickening for even me!!
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Old 08-04-2007, 05:20 AM   #18
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

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Uh....no.

If my presence offends you in any way, you could very well find another Steelers board. How about you keep being you, I'll keep being me, and maybe one day we can all be friends.
Ha. I enjoyed that.

Thanks for your thoughts, specifically the extra details on the Bengals - its all good info!

You are probably correct - maybe the Browns should be downgraded slightly, because its pretty clear that the Bengals had the best draft in 2004.
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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Old 08-04-2007, 05:31 AM   #19
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

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Yeah, I realise that - I just think that Starks is only an 'every-snap' player because the Steelers find themselves at a rare time of relative weakness in the O-line.



Definitely not, I rate Roethlisberger highly - at his peak he would have been my 2nd choice QB in a sudden death scenario (ahead of Manning).

My point was that its not fair to criticise the impact of a drafted player if he comes into a terrible set up - the Steelers were in a very good place when Roethlisberger arrived.



Well, for a start, I would have.

2000 9-7
2001 13-3
2002 10-5-1
2003 6-10

The Steelers had been there/thereabouts in the preceding 3 seasons - and had suffered only 3 losing seasons in the previous 12, and back-2-back losing season only once.

It seemed unlikely they would repeat the poor form of the previous year, but Ben performed way over expectations - teams normally suffer by having a rookie at the helm.
Soooooooo.....by that thinking...we should be in the playoffs this year....right?
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Old 08-04-2007, 05:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: 2004 Draft Retrospective - AFCN

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Soooooooo.....by that thinking...we should be in the playoffs this year....right?
For sure.

I have written it in other threads - I have the Steelers pencilled in for the postseason, most probably as a wildcard.
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They've been great for a while now, three Super Bowls' worth of great. But only this season have the New England Patriots become The Show, the must-see team of stars, pretty boys and reformed bad boys. Suddenly, the Patriots are not simply great; they're compelling, fascinating, appearing to be almighty and a touch lawless.
The Patriots didn't bother with swagger to start this NFL season; they went straight to defiant. Either you're one of them or you're about to get crushed.
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