Why register with the Steelers Fever Forums?
 • Intelligent and friendly discussions.
 • It's free and it's quick. Always.
 • Enter events in the forums calendar.
 • Very user friendly software.
 • Exclusive contests and giveaways.

 Donate to Steelers Fever, Click here
 Our 2014 Goal: $450.00 - To Date: $450.00 (100.00%)
 Home | Forums | Editorials | Shop | Tickets | Downloads | Contact Pittsburgh Steelers Forum Feed Not Just Fans. Hardcore Fans.

Go Back   Steelers Fever Forums > Miscellaneous > Locker Room


Steelers Fever Fan Shop

Doc's Sports Get FREE NFL Picks and College Football picks as well as Football Lines like live NFL Lines and updated NFL Power Rankings all at Doc's Sports Service.

Steelers

LOL

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-09-2007, 01:23 AM   #41
Preacher
Living Legend
 

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,890
Member Number: 16327
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

Um.... Guys (and Gals)...

First off, it isn't "Mexicans" it is Latinos. Not because I am politically correct, but because a big number of those illegal aliens are not from Mexico. They are other central and south AMerican countries.

What is more interesting, is the border control the Mexican government uses... It is pretty tough. Much tougher then ours. THen they turn around and complain about the US and its border control.
Preacher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 02:18 AM   #42
Steelerstrength
Starter
 
Steelerstrength's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 442
Gender: Male
Member Number: 3283
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

When making a case, in such a sensitive issue that can result in more public anger, can numbers from CNN be our most reliable source? Unfortunately not, but we don?t really know who to believe, what web sites are complete fabrications that twist numbers and statements to fit their agenda, and why they would choose to incite division?

Real Immigration Reform must be a top priority for our country! And by not expediting the process and resolution, the issue is creating more division, fear, and in some cases hate for our fellow human beings. It is indeed that serious!


Here are just a few things I noticed in briefly looking over the ?14 Reasons to Deport??

#1 "...reason to deport illegal aliens..." is quoting an opinion on immigrants, both legal and illegal. Unfortunately I did not find where they differentiated.

#9, Dobbs quotes "...both illegal and legal..." in regards to the suppression of $200 Billion in wages per year. And it is very difficult to trust any numbers quoted by Lou Dobbs after his recent un-apologetic fiasco with figures.

#10, actually says, ??Hispanics in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-Hispanics, and it seems very clear that if you basically bring in a lot of low-skilled Hispanics with dysfunctional family structure from the Central America, that both they and, in particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the United States. The data is very clear on that. But it can't be discussed.?

I clearly understand the data with the interjected opinion, but he does not say ?Illegal Aliens.? He is quoting something he may be familiar with, regarding overall criminal statistics, but not at all mentioning crimes committed by only illegal immigrants. IMHO, it is purely a generalization of Hispanics.

There is also a quote from a man from the ultra conservative Heritage Foundation, who states his anecdotal opinion, not any factual data. This too cannot be presented as fact.

It is not my intent to disprove the list, but after just a brief glance, some embellishing is apparent. It is obvious that there are some large numbers of actual crimes committed, suppressed wages, and billions spent on welfare to illegal immigrants. I am not disagreeing with the premise. But the ?Reasons? were presented as facts, and that?s just not the complete truth.

To: I Want Troys Hair:

Quote:
?the future is already here . I live in the great state of Mexifornia formerly known as California it's already happened. I am the minority, white, woman and a Steeler Fan!

And English well that is a thing of the past.?


The context, in which you chose to write your post, using the word Mexifornia, is insulting and crudely meant for Mexicans. While many of the illegal immigrants are Mexican, they are also from Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua, and El Salvador who all speak Spanish. The latest numbers that I?ve seen show 56 percent of illegal immigrants come from Mexico. Another 22 percent come from other Latin American countries. (22 percent come from Asia, Europe, and Africa) Many jokes have been distributed using that word in a derogatory manner, with illustrations. I point this out only to let you know, in that context, how that word is perceived. Please refrain from using it again in that context. Thank you in advance!

You have conveyed your anger quite clearly. I must admit to the difficulty in reading your diatribe about the ??uneducated?? with various spelling, punctuation, capitalization and grammatical errors. Your point is made, but is somewhat clouded.

Regarding the low-skilled agricultural jobs and farm-workers, do any of us know someone who would be willing to perform that job, in those working conditions, for minimum wage? They are literally and figuratively bent-over for up to eight hours per day. And forget holidays! Locally the farm workers were there everyday this year, including the 4th of July, because the owner said that it was not a Mexican holiday.

It is some bullshit when contractors choose to hire illegal immigrants over our own skilled construction journeyman & laborers! The choice definitely hurts our economy through lost wages, taxes paid (through higher wages paid), and out of work Americans! Both my brothers are successful contractors who deal with this scenario often. All workers hired and employed are union.

I too live in the Great State of California and love it! Many streets and cities have Spanish names. Should we change them to English?

I am a Mexican-American who is also upset at our fiasco called Immigration Reform! It is non-existent, up to now. Building a fence will not solve this issue. Some real Immigration Reform is required ASAP! There are plenty of reasons, many more than fourteen, to be upset with our inability to set forth a policy with enforcement. Mexico is completely hypocritical with its immigration laws and we need to call them on it! They need to step up to the plate and address this issue pronto!

If anyone is going to use the words ?stupid? or ?god damned? and immediately follow that with Mexicans, that is a racially insensitive remark! You may not be a racist, but those kind of remarks should not be used, and I am personally offended. Please be more empathetic.

Write an email to your Congressman, or in my case Congresswoman Lois Capps. Be heard! I refuse to sit back and complain about this situation without addressing the issue through proper channels.

I sincerely hope that something is done soon, so I can view this board with my fellow Steeler Fans without a worry of what Nationality we are, or what might be said about our differences.

Go Steelers!
__________________
Steelerstrength is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 03:50 AM   #43
Preacher
Living Legend
 

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,890
Member Number: 16327
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

SteelerStrength....

Excellent Post.

If I may respond to a few things...

1.
Quote:
Real Immigration Reform must be a top priority for our country! And by not expediting the process and resolution, the issue is creating more division, fear, and in some cases hate for our fellow human beings. It is indeed that serious!
You are absolutely correct. I have often said that I want true immigration reform, which means two things. 1. We need to stop ILLEGAL immigration into the country, period. 2. However, we ALSO need to work through the issues that hinder legal immigration. These issues are much bigger however. When the Mexican nation provides guides for people to cross the border, it becomes a violation of national sovereignty. I am very upset at my government (ALL PARTS, ALL PARTIES) for not doing anything about it.

I wonder if some of the frustration that is directed towards "mexicans" is actually misplaced anger at the Mexican government. It doesn't excuse it, but I am just wondering.

2.
Quote:
I am not disagreeing with the premise. But the ?Reasons? were presented as facts, and that?s just not the complete truth.
In a time when "Bush Lied. People Died" is considered Gospel truth, how dare you ask for actual facts!

Seriously, While I haven't checked the sources, I think there is a balance between what was said, and what the truth is. CNN is actually a better source about something like that then some other sources, mainly because they tend to lean more towards a political inclination that would support illegal immigration. However, facts are just that, facts. It is philosophical argument that pulls facts together to create a coherent argument, and one of those have not been seen in Washington D.C. in half a century.


3.
Quote:
The context, in which you chose to write your post, using the word Mexifornia, is insulting and crudely meant for Mexicans.
I understand what you are saying. Please see my previous post to see that I understand the percentages. There are, historically, two sides to this coin however. I have been confronted by those who have a Mexican heritage (specifically Mexican), and told that this was their land, stolen by the U.S. (actually, California was its own country for a little while before the U.S. military came. The country of California accepted annexation to the U.S.). When approached by such a person, I just shake my head. For me, the idea of "Mexifornia" is not slam, but instead a romanticized idea of the past

i.e. MEChA (No, not the idiocy about them wanting to take over America, but the actual understanding of Aztlan, as taken from their own website http://www.azteca.net/aztec/mecha/faq.html

Quote:
What is Aztlan? Aztlan is the place where the Aztec people came from. No one knows for sure where Aztlan was, but we seem to have an idea that is is located in the Southwestern US near southern Utah. Aztlan is the one of the early homelands of the Aztec or Mexica people. I realize that most Americans, think that that Columbus discovered America and our Indigenous history before Columbus has no value and does not matter. Well that may be true for most Americans but not for most Chicanos. We cherish our Indigenous heritage and indigenous history. Indigenous Americans are not different below the US border. The border between the US and Mexico did not exist in the past. Indigenous languages and people are related North and South of the border by language and customs. Many Chicanos think this border is meaningless when it comes to our heritage. We belong to this land it is the land of our people. This may be hard to understand but think of it like this. Could you really tell an African that he does not belong in Africa? That he is a foreigner in Africa? Our ancestors were in America thousands of years before Columbus came.
The problem with this understanding, is that the Europeans first landed in central America, and intermarried with them. It is as correct for a Latino to claim Southern European ancestory as it is "Native American" ancestory. Furthermore, Mexican expansion ended by California claiming independence, and then the further agreements which stopped the war. it was the ancestors of the same people who now claim California was stolen that agreed to the line drawn in the sand.

In short, it is my belief that a person in a country should show respect for the dominant culture of that country. For me, mexifornia is a quick of of expressing this sentiment.

However, for me, ni*ger still means fearful and has nothing to do with race, so I am probably wrong!

4.
Quote:
I too live in the Great State of California and love it! Many streets and cities have Spanish names. Should we change them to English?
No. However, that is not the same as the expectation that one can converse in the dominant language of the country. In many ways, we have brought this on ourselves by not making English the official language. Please let it be known, If I EVER moved to another country, It will be my responsibility to learn the language of the nation I move to. However, this in no way devalues ANY person from any race. In my church, any time we do something with our Spanish congregation, I make every attempt to make sure that things are interpreted.

5.
Quote:
I am a Mexican-American who is also upset at our fiasco called Immigration Reform! It is non-existent, up to now. Building a fence will not solve this issue. Some real Immigration Reform is required ASAP! There are plenty of reasons, many more than fourteen, to be upset with our inability to set forth a policy with enforcement. Mexico is completely hypocritical with its immigration laws and we need to call them on it! They need to step up to the plate and address this issue pronto!
I do believe a fence is part of the answer. The harder it is for people to illegally enter the nation, the fewer the people that will illegally enter. However, that is only PART of the over-all answer. You are also dead right on Mexican enforcement and immigration law.

Quote:
If anyone is going to use the words ?stupid? or ?god damned? and immediately follow that with Mexicans, that is a racially insensitive remark! You may not be a racist, but those kind of remarks should not be used, and I am personally offended. Please be more empathetic.
I agree with your entire statement, but thank you for seeing the difference between a statement, and the person as a whole.

____________________________________

Please understand, when I say deport illegal aliens, I personally could care less what race or religion they are. If they are Baptist from England, and here illegally, they need to go home. Now. Period. If they are Muslim, and here from Mexico legally, welcome to the United States. Period. End of Story.
Preacher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 03:56 AM   #44
Preacher
Living Legend
 

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,890
Member Number: 16327
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelerstrength View Post

I sincerely hope that something is done soon, so I can view this board with my fellow Steeler Fans without a worry of what Nationality we are, or what might be said about our differences.

Go Steelers!

Honestly, I could care less what nationality you are!! Your part of the Steeler nation... and we love all our brothers and sisters.... but we accept NO immigration, legal OR illegal, from Bengaldom!
Preacher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 08:26 AM   #45
SCSTILLER
Assistant Coach
 
SCSTILLER's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charleston, SC via New Brighton, PA
Posts: 1,093
Gender: Male
Member Number: 4202
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

Antoher thing that ticks me off is the local authorities in the United States (not all places, don't get me wrong). Where I live you will see 50-100 illegals outside the gas station waiting on work, then see a cop pull up, go inside to grab a snack or whatever, then leave. And the illegals feel unthreatened by him/her (I am not by no means bashing our brave police officers). But when they aren't even afraid to get caught, our INS system is not doing its job.
__________________
"Good men drink good beer!" Hunter S. Thompson
SCSTILLER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 08:32 AM   #46
Godfather
Living Legend
Supporter
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,140
Member Number: 547
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Want-Troy's-Hair View Post
what I find funny is Bush want to send our national guard over to Iraq to secure their borders. He can't secure our borders and he wants to secure theirs this country does everything bass ackwards.
Yep. He also spent hundreds ofmillions rebuilding their wetlands but he's been a major obstacle to rebuilding Louisiana's wetlands--which protect a major portion of our domestic oil production.
Godfather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 12:03 PM   #47
Hammer67
Head Coach
Supporter
 
Hammer67's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Boston, MI (originally from Moon Township, PA)
Posts: 1,988
Gender: Male
Member Number: 651
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelerstrength View Post
I am a Mexican-American who is also upset at our fiasco called Immigration Reform!
You share dual citizenship? I always hated this type of self descriptions. African-American, Italian-American, etc. I always found it devisive...

I am an American. Period. I have Scots-Irish and German heritage but I am solely an American as I do not have dual citizenship anywhere else.

__________________


"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

Hammer67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 12:38 PM   #48
Steelerstrength
Starter
 
Steelerstrength's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 442
Gender: Male
Member Number: 3283
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer67 View Post
You share dual citizenship? I always hated this type of self descriptions. African-American, Italian-American, etc. I always found it devisive...

I am an American. Period. I have Scots-Irish and German heritage but I am solely an American as I do not have dual citizenship anywhere else.

For you, Hammer, I am an American of Mexican descent. Purely semantics, but I am proud either way. Actually, on my mothers side, I am 7th generation Californian.
__________________
Steelerstrength is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 12:45 PM   #49
fansince'76
Living Legend
Supporter
 

Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 17,618
Member Number: 1984
Thanks: 262
Thanked 1,311 Times in 476 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

I think the first step in implementing a common-sense solution that will actually have a chance to work is to stop placing all the blame on the illegals and shifting it to where it belongs - unscrupulous employers on this side of the border that exploit them. If those jobs weren't there, does anyone really think the illegal immigration problem would be nearly as bad as it is now?
fansince'76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 01:17 PM   #50
Steelerstrength
Starter
 
Steelerstrength's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 442
Gender: Male
Member Number: 3283
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

Hey Preach, thanks for the kind response! I was happy to see a favorable response from my fellow Steelers fans.

Regarding the use of the word "Mexifornia", I completely stand by my statement,"Many jokes have been distributed using that word in a derogatory manner, with illustrations. I point this out only to let you know, in that context, how that word is perceived." Providing background to how the word is perceived here in California, as a consequence to how it is intended and used, should further provide some understanding.

Locally here in Santa Barbara, a recently published letter, dating back to when Mexico sold California to the US, from Pablo De La Guerra, then a wealthy Mexican rancher. Here are some exerpts that may interest you:

The following is an excerpt from Josh Gottheimer?s book, Ripples of Hope: Great American Civil Rights Speeches.

The Hispanic-American civil rights struggle is rooted, in part, in the Mexican-American War and the resulting Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848). The treaty was negotiated by the United States ostensibly to prevent American settlers moving west from seizing land that belonged to Mexicans before the war. With the gold rush in full throttle, however, the treaty was quickly abandoned, as pioneers seized land indiscriminately and without care for Mexican Americans.

In 1851, in direct violation of the treaty, Congress passed the Land Law, requiring all Latinos living in the ?new? territories to provide proof of their land grants, a near impossibility considering the lack of documentation. In the meantime, while the courts discerned true ownership, the law allowed Anglo Americans to seize and develop the disputed land. This mass confiscation later served as the root of the Chicano liberation movement and propelled the separatist ideas advanced by leaders like Reies L?pez Tijerina. In the 19th century, however, most Mexican Americans struggled in virtual silence to maintain their land holdings.

Pablo de la Guerra, a prominent Mexican American, was a lone voice against this injustice. One of the few Mexican Americans in the California State Assembly and Senate during the 1850s, he was embraced by many Mexican Americans and whites as an ally and trustworthy citizen. Speaking passionately, De la Guerra succeeded in tabling one land seizure bill after another. A cascade of political pressure ultimately overwhelmed his cause, as more white settlers and miners moved to California and demanded to ?reclaim? the land. After De la Guerra died, the Latino cause largely would be put on hold for another century.

On Seizing Land from Native Californians

I  hope the Senate will allow me to offer a few remarks upon the merits of the bill, and to state why, upon the principles of reason and justice I consider that the bill should be indefinitely postponed. ?

Well, sir, the war took place, and we, after doing our duty as citizens of Mexico, were sold like sheep???abandoned by our nation, and as it were, awoke from a dream, strangers on the very soil on which we were native and to the manor born. We passed from the hands of Mexico to that of the United States, but we had the consolation of believing that the United States, as a nation, was more liberal than our own. We had the greatest respect for an American. Every American who came to our country was held in higher estimation than even one of our countrymen. And I call upon every American who visited us to bear testimony to this fact. And after being abandoned by our own country and annexed to the United States, we thought that we belonged to a nation the most civilized, the most humane?a nation that was the foremost in planting the banner of liberty on every portion of its dominions?a nation that was the most careful in protecting the just rights of its citizens. Well, sir, in 1849, a great many emigrated to California, not to settle upon the land or to cultivate the soil, but to work in the mines and go home; and from ?49 to ?52 they had no other object, but many finding that it was hard work in the mines, and being told that the land in the State had not been separated from the public domain, had no boundaries and being probably further misled by lawyers, or interested persons, who stated that the land in this condition would never be confirmed to the owners by the Supreme Court of the United States, came and settled upon our lands. And I ask, are we to suffer for that?

I believe that I speak advisedly, when I say that three-fourths of the settlers upon the lands, have been aware that someone had a prior claim; they knew it by common report, that such a one and such a one had a claim upon the land; but they thought that even if it was confirmed to the owners, that the use of the land until the confirmation, would be worth more than the improvements that they would make. Perhaps one-fourth went upon the land in good faith. I do not know that such was the case, but I am willing to grant it; but now, when they find that it is probable that the Supreme Court of the United States will confirm these grants, and after deriving all the benefits for the use of the same, they apply to the Legislature, in order that a State Law may be set up as a bar against the action of the Court of the United States.

I say, sir, that already we have suffered deeply; our property has been sacrificed. The Bay of San Francisco alone, at one time, had more cattle than can now be found in the counties of Santa Clara, Monterey, Santa Cruz, San Luis Obispo, and Santa Barbara. Horses, at that time could be counted by the thousands; and I believe that many settlers have settled upon lands for the purposes of stealing the cattle and sending them to the San Francisco market for sale.

Now, sir, of the 113 members in this Legislature, I am the only native of this state; and the native population expect from me, and through me, that in my place in this Legislative Hall, that I shall call the attention of this body to the facts I have now stated, and to tell you that badly treated as they have been in every respect, they look around them and find no other aid except in the mercy of Heaven, and the justice of this Legislature; and now, in their name, I call upon you, Senators, to consider that if they are deprived of what is left to them, they have no other place to go to. They have been rejected by the Mexicans; they know no other country but California, and by depriving them of their rights, they will be compelled to be beggars in the streets; and in order to prevent this terrible calamity from overtaking them, they, through me, throw themselves upon your mercy and clemency; and they ask and expect from you protection that will justify before the eyes of the world the belief in justice of the American people. If the American settlers are deprived of what they have expended for their improvements, they can go home and meet the aid and sympathies of their friends and countrymen; but the Californian, what prospect has he before him, or where shall he go?

I wish to make one remark about the expression, ?settled in good faith,? and I am done. Sir, if this bill has effect, it will be from the countries of Santa Clara upward, because in the south we have no settlers; but in those counties I am now referring to, the settlers greatly outnumber the land claimants, and it is useless to say that juries are incorruptible. We know that such is not the case from our daily experience. And these juries will be formed by whom? Sir, they will consist of those very settlers. The Sheriff will summon such a jury as will suit their views. I have seen a good deal of juries in California. I have seen where proof, clear as noon day, would not alter the decision of a jury from their preconceived opinions.

And I will affirm that I believe that out of 100 cases tried between the settlers and the land owners, that 99 will be given in favor of the settler.

And, sir, to conclude these remarks, permit me to assure you, upon my honor as a gentleman, that everything I have stated is true and as clear as conviction itself. I know that I am in the Senate chamber of California, where full liberty of speech is allowed, but if I were speaking to a barbarous people, I should still advocate the same sentiments, and even if I were killed for so doing, I should at least have the satisfaction of dying in a just cause, and should receive the reward from Him who has said, ?Blessed are those who are persecuted, for righteousness sake, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.? ?Pablo de la Guerra, April 1855

__________________________________________________ __________________

Personally, the issue is done. I believe in moving forward, together, for a common good. I thought this might be of interest to you.

Thanks for reading!
__________________
Steelerstrength is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.1 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.0.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Navbar with Avatar by Motorradforum
no new posts