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Old 08-09-2007, 01:00 PM   #51
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Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

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Hey Preach, thanks for the kind response! I was happy to see a favorable response from my fellow Steelers fans.

Regarding the use of the word "Mexifornia", I completely stand by my statement,"Many jokes have been distributed using that word in a derogatory manner, with illustrations. I point this out only to let you know, in that context, how that word is perceived." Providing background to how the word is perceived here in California, as a consequence to how it is intended and used, should further provide some understanding.

Locally here in Santa Barbara, a recently published letter, dating back to when Mexico sold California to the US, from Pablo De La Guerra, then a wealthy Mexican rancher. Here are some exerpts that may interest you:

The following is an excerpt from Josh Gottheimer?s book, Ripples of Hope: Great American Civil Rights Speeches.

The Hispanic-American civil rights struggle is rooted, in part, in the Mexican-American War and the resulting Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848). The treaty was negotiated by the United States ostensibly to prevent American settlers moving west from seizing land that belonged to Mexicans before the war. With the gold rush in full throttle, however, the treaty was quickly abandoned, as pioneers seized land indiscriminately and without care for Mexican Americans.

In 1851, in direct violation of the treaty, Congress passed the Land Law, requiring all Latinos living in the ?new? territories to provide proof of their land grants, a near impossibility considering the lack of documentation. In the meantime, while the courts discerned true ownership, the law allowed Anglo Americans to seize and develop the disputed land. This mass confiscation later served as the root of the Chicano liberation movement and propelled the separatist ideas advanced by leaders like Reies L?pez Tijerina. In the 19th century, however, most Mexican Americans struggled in virtual silence to maintain their land holdings.

Pablo de la Guerra, a prominent Mexican American, was a lone voice against this injustice. One of the few Mexican Americans in the California State Assembly and Senate during the 1850s, he was embraced by many Mexican Americans and whites as an ally and trustworthy citizen. Speaking passionately, De la Guerra succeeded in tabling one land seizure bill after another. A cascade of political pressure ultimately overwhelmed his cause, as more white settlers and miners moved to California and demanded to ?reclaim? the land. After De la Guerra died, the Latino cause largely would be put on hold for another century.

On Seizing Land from Native Californians

I  hope the Senate will allow me to offer a few remarks upon the merits of the bill, and to state why, upon the principles of reason and justice I consider that the bill should be indefinitely postponed. ?

Well, sir, the war took place, and we, after doing our duty as citizens of Mexico, were sold like sheep???abandoned by our nation, and as it were, awoke from a dream, strangers on the very soil on which we were native and to the manor born. We passed from the hands of Mexico to that of the United States, but we had the consolation of believing that the United States, as a nation, was more liberal than our own. We had the greatest respect for an American. Every American who came to our country was held in higher estimation than even one of our countrymen. And I call upon every American who visited us to bear testimony to this fact. And after being abandoned by our own country and annexed to the United States, we thought that we belonged to a nation the most civilized, the most humane?a nation that was the foremost in planting the banner of liberty on every portion of its dominions?a nation that was the most careful in protecting the just rights of its citizens. Well, sir, in 1849, a great many emigrated to California, not to settle upon the land or to cultivate the soil, but to work in the mines and go home; and from ?49 to ?52 they had no other object, but many finding that it was hard work in the mines, and being told that the land in the State had not been separated from the public domain, had no boundaries and being probably further misled by lawyers, or interested persons, who stated that the land in this condition would never be confirmed to the owners by the Supreme Court of the United States, came and settled upon our lands. And I ask, are we to suffer for that?

I believe that I speak advisedly, when I say that three-fourths of the settlers upon the lands, have been aware that someone had a prior claim; they knew it by common report, that such a one and such a one had a claim upon the land; but they thought that even if it was confirmed to the owners, that the use of the land until the confirmation, would be worth more than the improvements that they would make. Perhaps one-fourth went upon the land in good faith. I do not know that such was the case, but I am willing to grant it; but now, when they find that it is probable that the Supreme Court of the United States will confirm these grants, and after deriving all the benefits for the use of the same, they apply to the Legislature, in order that a State Law may be set up as a bar against the action of the Court of the United States.

I say, sir, that already we have suffered deeply; our property has been sacrificed. The Bay of San Francisco alone, at one time, had more cattle than can now be found in the counties of Santa Clara, Monterey, Santa Cruz, San Luis Obispo, and Santa Barbara. Horses, at that time could be counted by the thousands; and I believe that many settlers have settled upon lands for the purposes of stealing the cattle and sending them to the San Francisco market for sale.

Now, sir, of the 113 members in this Legislature, I am the only native of this state; and the native population expect from me, and through me, that in my place in this Legislative Hall, that I shall call the attention of this body to the facts I have now stated, and to tell you that badly treated as they have been in every respect, they look around them and find no other aid except in the mercy of Heaven, and the justice of this Legislature; and now, in their name, I call upon you, Senators, to consider that if they are deprived of what is left to them, they have no other place to go to. They have been rejected by the Mexicans; they know no other country but California, and by depriving them of their rights, they will be compelled to be beggars in the streets; and in order to prevent this terrible calamity from overtaking them, they, through me, throw themselves upon your mercy and clemency; and they ask and expect from you protection that will justify before the eyes of the world the belief in justice of the American people. If the American settlers are deprived of what they have expended for their improvements, they can go home and meet the aid and sympathies of their friends and countrymen; but the Californian, what prospect has he before him, or where shall he go?

I wish to make one remark about the expression, ?settled in good faith,? and I am done. Sir, if this bill has effect, it will be from the countries of Santa Clara upward, because in the south we have no settlers; but in those counties I am now referring to, the settlers greatly outnumber the land claimants, and it is useless to say that juries are incorruptible. We know that such is not the case from our daily experience. And these juries will be formed by whom? Sir, they will consist of those very settlers. The Sheriff will summon such a jury as will suit their views. I have seen a good deal of juries in California. I have seen where proof, clear as noon day, would not alter the decision of a jury from their preconceived opinions.

And I will affirm that I believe that out of 100 cases tried between the settlers and the land owners, that 99 will be given in favor of the settler.

And, sir, to conclude these remarks, permit me to assure you, upon my honor as a gentleman, that everything I have stated is true and as clear as conviction itself. I know that I am in the Senate chamber of California, where full liberty of speech is allowed, but if I were speaking to a barbarous people, I should still advocate the same sentiments, and even if I were killed for so doing, I should at least have the satisfaction of dying in a just cause, and should receive the reward from Him who has said, ?Blessed are those who are persecuted, for righteousness sake, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.? ?Pablo de la Guerra, April 1855

__________________________________________________ __________________

Personally, the issue is done. I believe in moving forward, together, for a common good. I thought this might be of interest to you.

Thanks for reading!

wowowoowowow good read my man!
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:16 PM   #52
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For you, Hammer, I am an American of Mexican descent. Purely semantics, but I am proud either way. Actually, on my mothers side, I am 7th generation Californian.
LOL! Thanks! It means a lot!

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Old 08-09-2007, 01:22 PM   #53
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Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

Good reading on this topic, gals and gents. Very informative. I know there are many personal feelings involved. But, I think I would like to see a more secure border. And, a fair way to enter the country. The flow of illegals must end. But, that doesn't mean we should turn our backs on these people.

While I respect their yearning to make a living. I have to stand by the folks already here. We have unemployment, welfare and poverty already, without factoring illegal immigrants. We need to focus on what's best for them and for the US taxpayers.

I wish people from these central and south American countries would work within the confines of their own countries and find out why they need to flee. Mexico should be thriving on it's own accord.

I think American companies should be held accountable for paying undocumented labor.
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:22 PM   #54
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Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

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Good reading on this topic, gals and gents. Very informative. I know there are many personal feelings involved. But, I think I would like to see a more secure border. And, a fair way to enter the country. The flow of illegals must end. But, that doesn't mean we should turn our backs on these people.

While I respect their yearning to make a living. I have to stand by the folks already here. We have unemployment, welfare and poverty already, without factoring illegal immigrants. We need to focus on what's best for them and for the US taxpayers.

I wish people from these central and south American countries would work within the confines of their own countries and find out why they need to flee. Mexico should be thriving on it's own accord.

I think American companies should be held accountable for paying undocumented labor.

You nailed it Hammer! Nuff said!

Oh, and, welcome back ParkerFan!
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:32 PM   #55
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Default Re: 14 Reason to Deport Illegal Aliens

My basic opinion is this: If you're a mexican and here legally, I applaud you for taking the necesary steps to get here LEGALLY. If you're here by hoppin' the border, get the hell out of my country and don't come back unless you're going to do it legally.

So basically, I'm not using the term Mexicans as a catch-all, but only for people from Mexico that are here illegally and have no right to call themselves Americans.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:41 PM   #56
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Default Re: 14 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens

steps to combat illegal immigration need to be taken. I don't just blame the illegals, I blame the businesses that hire them. INS needs to weed out the illegals, deport them, and penalize the hell out of these businesses, how about a $20,000 fine per illegal working there? I'd say start holding businesses who hire illegals, avoid taxes and other illegal practices accountable, shut them down, make the owners suffer. start yanking their assets. make it hard if not impossible for illegal immigrants to get a job here because no one will hire them out of fear of being penilized. enable people who can come to the U.S. legally, work legally, pay taxes, and respect our laws to become citizens.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:58 PM   #57
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Default Re: 14 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens

Steelerstrength...

I don't care that your heritage is from mexico...

Its the part that is from california that bothers me... the californians here are off thier rocker!!

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Old 08-09-2007, 04:44 PM   #58
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Default Re: 14 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens

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Steelerstrength...

I don't care that your heritage is from mexico...

Its the part that is from california that bothers me... the californians here are off thier rocker!!

Hey Preacher Man, the Californian in me goes back hundreds of years. Two streets in downtown SB are named after my family, I'll have you know.

But I have to agree with you about the melting pot we have here in Cali! Any kind of crazy can be found here. I resemble that statement! Matter of fact, when I'm in the weight room, all my friends say I'm F'ing crazy!


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Old 08-09-2007, 05:00 PM   #59
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Default Re: 14 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens

Ah yes, California...the land of "fruits" and "nuts"!!!
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Old 08-09-2007, 05:18 PM   #60
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Bush & Rove know what happened to the GOP in California after former GOP Governor Pete Wilson ran hard against immigrants in the mid-90s. Legal Hispanic/American citizen voters are the fastest growing demographic group in the country. Both the Dems and GOP are terrified of doing anything on immigration that is regarded as "Hispanic bashing" and will tilt the three largest states of the 21st century (California/Florida//Texas), each of which have large Hispanic populations, into the column of the opposing party.

Hate to break it to you but an illegal making less than $7.50 an hour is not benefiting the most from low wage rates - instead, it is companies that exploit the surplus value of labor that benefit the most from paying lower wages to increase profits.

And as far as "hate for the man" my views on Bush are not driven by personal animosity against him, seeing as I voted for him in 2000 - it is many of his policies (Iraq/deficit spending/lack of accountability for the executive branch) that I despise. As for Bush not vetoing anything from Congress, he had a GOP Congress for the first six years of his Administration.

In closing, before you accuse someone else of getting "caught up in semantics" I would appreciate some guidance as to what exactly you mean when you refer to "manipulative foreigners" and a "victory for 'them'"
A) If the Mexicans jumping the border aren't benefiting by flocking here, then, um, why are they flocking here?
B) My argument is two pronged. I'm just as angry at immigrants who come here and manipulate our tax code to their advantage and our disadvantage.
C) "Victory for them"? If you think there is some vast difference between, say, Hillary Clinton and W, you've been successfully hoodwinked. They are both working from the same agenda that big business and a few other power brokers set for them. Which is exactly why it's so pointless to bash one particular cog in a giant wheel of deception.
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