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Old 11-27-2007, 02:41 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

Oh Boy, isn't this where I came in before on another debate? The courts have and are constantly redefining the constitution to suit the purpose of those that put them in their position of federal judge. I.e. Roe v. Wade, Prop 187 in California to name only a few. Now the courts have said religion has no place in the government, but this country was founded on religion and religious freedom. (See WACO or Ruby Ridge)

There was nor is anything in the Constitution that states separation of Church and State, that was in a letter written to a person asking if there was going to be a State religion as in England, and the response from the framer and writer of the Constitution was that there will be a separation of church and state meaning that there will be no State religion, meaning Anglican Church. Now the ACLU and the Democrats have pushed the agenda of removing religion from the face of America.
FYI did you know our Founding Fathers had in their budget money to purchase bibles and they were given to each and every immigrant that came to this new land? Yet the courts now say the Ten Commandments are not allowed in court houses. That is what the laws are based on.
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The Ten Commandments display was removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building. There was a good reason for the move. You can't post Thou Shalt Not Steal, Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery, and Thou Shall Not Lie in a building full of lawyers and politicians without creating a hostile work environment.
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:50 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

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Originally Posted by TroysBadDawg View Post
Oh Boy, isn't this where I came in before on another debate? The courts have and are constantly redefining the constitution to suit the purpose of those that put them in their position of federal judge. I.e. Roe v. Wade, Prop 187 in California to name only a few. Now the courts have said religion has no place in the government, but this country was founded on religion and religious freedom. (See WACO or Ruby Ridge)

There was nor is anything in the Constitution that states separation of Church and State, that was in a letter written to a person asking if there was going to be a State religion as in England, and the response from the framer and writer of the Constitution was that there will be a separation of church and state meaning that there will be no State religion, meaning Anglican Church. Now the ACLU and the Democrats have pushed the agenda of removing religion from the face of America.
FYI did you know our Founding Fathers had in their budget money to purchase bibles and they were given to each and every immigrant that came to this new land? Yet the courts now say the Ten Commandments are not allowed in court houses. That is what the laws are based on.
Just remember
The Ten Commandments display was removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building. There was a good reason for the move. You can't post Thou Shalt Not Steal, Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery, and Thou Shall Not Lie in a building full of lawyers and politicians without creating a hostile work environment.
Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, And Ben Franklin et. al. believed in the separation of church and state. This is a fact not open to debate. As for the Constitution I suggest you read Article VI Clause 3, Article II Sect I and of course The First Amendment.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

Good point TroysBadDog...
This country is going down hill fast. The other countries are letting us ( the USA) hang ourselves. We (Bush) is getting the USA in so much debt for this war that he has caused because he ( A Oil Man Himself) wanted the oil that they have. Who will he try to start a fight with next? Russia? They have alot of oil!
Has anyone seen the email being sent around that shows our Marines bowing their heads in prayer over there? Well, now there is people saying that they have No Right to Do that on Company Time!!!! Are you kidding me? Anyone watching the news where our Government is sending our soldiers bills for their doctors bills if they are sent home without finishing their term over there? Its happening folks... go to CNN.com and read... All these Paid holidays for the Government is a Joke!! Where is all the money that is missing that the Government has sent over to Iraq? No One Knows!!
This Is The New USA... no freedom of speech unless your a part of Animals Acts Folks. There is people that get off scott free for killing someone, or do a few years in prison. And now Vick is gonna do time just for killing a dog. You would be better off dumping your child in a trash dump than killing a dog or cat!
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

I agree that its horrible the way that PETA and all tthose types of groups have made it worse to kill an animal than a person in some ways, but going back to the original point of this topic:

As a Jew, I don't expect that the government should give everyone off for Chanukah. The point you made that "If they dont believe in the holidays, they should work on them" is completely missing the reasons behind the Christmas off-days. Those days are not given off because of the government being christian, It is because the majority of people in the United States are Christians, and follow that holiday. We do not live in a Christian country, we live in a country where most of the citizens (and non-citizens) are Christians. That's what it boils down to.

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he has caused because he ( A Oil Man Himself) wanted the oil that they have. Who will he try to start a fight with next? Russia? They have alot of oil!
I am not a bush apologist, but the ones who really are in it for the oil is the United Nations. Theyre the ones who created the oil for food program that is well known for being completely corrupt. If we were just there for oil, we would have left by now, like the democrats believe would solve all the problems in the middle east.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

Elvis, if Bush went into the Middle East for oil, why is gas over $3 a gallon? The reason gas is so high is because we have not been allowed to increase the drilling of or the refining of our own massive reserves for 30 years, even though our need for energy has dramatically increased over that time. IMO, Bush went to war because 3,000 civilians were murdered on U.S. soil by muslim extremists who are hell bent on our total destruction. Despite the pressure on Bush by the media, his political opponents & those easily persuaded by the medias bias reporting, Bush has stayed the course. It appears the tide is changing in the Middle East, in our favor in fact, though you will not hear much about it.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:56 PM   #16
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

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I worked for the federal government for 13 years, and there were ten holidays a year I received paid days off for. Only one of them had anything to do with religion, and that was Christmas. The other nine?

New Year's Day - not religious.

Martin Luther King Day - not religious.

President's Day - not religious.

Memorial Day - not religious.

Independence Day - not religious.

Labor Day - not religious.

Columbus Day - not religious.

Veteran's Day - not religious.

Thanksgiving Day - not religious.

The one other holiday that federal employees get to my knowledge is Inauguration Day, which occurs once every four years and only benefits federal employees that work inside and around the D.C. beltway (of which I was never one) and also has nothing to do with religion. What are these other "holidays" you speak of? Or are you talking about the Congressional recess calendar? Congress kind of works their own whacked schedule anyway.
Not exactly a fair statement. The major religious holidays for Christians are Christmas and Easter. one of those is always on Sunday. So in reality, you get the major religious holidays off. And to whom are we giving thanks on Thanksgiving?

Three of those holidays (Memorial, Independence, Veterans) are patriotic in nature. So what if they're secular? They're also the most important to what it means to be an American.

Columbus Day is the one I'd consider the biggest waste of time. Not even the most deserving explorer.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:12 PM   #17
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

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Not exactly a fair statement. The major religious holidays for Christians are Christmas and Easter. one of those is always on Sunday. So in reality, you get the major religious holidays off. And to whom are we giving thanks on Thanksgiving?

Three of those holidays (Memorial, Independence, Veterans) are patriotic in nature. So what if they're secular? They're also the most important to what it means to be an American.

Columbus Day is the one I'd consider the biggest waste of time. Not even the most deserving explorer.
I wasn't referring to Christian holidays - I was referring to holidays the OP mentioned as relating to God/Jesus that federal employees get off with pay that most folks in the private sector wind up working on. My point stands on 8 of the holidays I mentioned. I'll give you Thanksgiving, but Thanksgiving at its essence is an antiquated notion - it was originally observed primarily as giving thanks to the Almighty for a bountiful harvest season when America was still overwhelmingly an agrarian society, and this country hasn't fit that description for well over a century. Further, most folks get Thanksgiving and Christmas off, regardless of whether they work in the public or private sector. I don't know of too many folks who work in the private sector that get MLK Day, Veteran's Day or Columbus Day off, for example, and those 3 holidays have absolutely nothing to do with religion.

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Old 11-27-2007, 08:59 PM   #18
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

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And to whom are we giving thanks on Thanksgiving?
certainly not the NFL !!! who gives a crap about detroit ?
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

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Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, And Ben Franklin et. al. believed in the separation of church and state. This is a fact not open to debate. As for the Constitution I suggest you read Article VI Clause 3, Article II Sect I and of course The First Amendment.
However, Seperation of church and state as referred to by Jefferson, Madison and the others is NOT the same understanding as Sep. of church and state today. In that time, the issue was not keeping the church out of the state, it was keeping the state out of the church. The idea of no official religion was not written as an attack on churches, but rather as a PROTECTION for churches, that a state couldn't persecute believers of a christian denomination because they were not of another denomination (at that time, the only influences necessary to this discussion was Christianity and Deism. Atheism was not considered by the founding fathers, as evident in the declaration of independence.).

The real danger to our society is the removal of the diety from our schools, courts, and government. The founding fathers claimed that our rights as citizens came not from an esoteric understanding of humanity's prominence, our rights were endowed by a creator, and are therefore imminent in existence. The result of this foundation is a government which was to have no authority to remove the primeval rights of a citizen.

That is now changing. By removing references to a deity and the understanding that there is one creator then humanity. Our court system and government has quietly removed the very foundation which the rights of American citizen is founded. In short, our freedom is threatened because our nation now officially refuses to recognize the source which our nation claimed our freedom came from.

To back up my point, I take you to John Leland and the Virginia Baptists in the late 1700's. Their fear was not that the constitution removed religion, but that it didn't not do enough to secure any religion from being oppressed. George Washington replied to this fear, "If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution framed in the convention, where I had the honor to preside, might possibly endanger the religious rights of any ecclesiastical society, certainly I would never have placed my signature to it." (Joseph M. Dawson, Baptists and the American Republic page 117).

The VIrgina baptists and John Leland were not satisfied, and wanted the rights spelled out. They threatened to kill the ratification of the constitution. The result of which was a compromise, known as the Bill of Rights. (H. Leon MacBeth, The Baptist Heritage: Four Centuries of Baptist Witness. Page 281. )

In the end, the idea was not to remove a deity from society, which is what is being done today, it was to give each INDIVIDUAL the right to accept their idea of a deity, or reject.

"A wall of seperation between church and state" in its original context by Jefferson, is better spoken of today as saying, "Neutrality by the state in regards to established religion." It has no affect on a general understanding of a creator.

Our country is in serious problems.
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Government Should Have To Work!!

So then why don't we make Christianity the official religion of this country and subject all people of other religions, and beliefs to our prayers in PUBLIC schools and in all government offices, only hire Christians to work in government jobs, and make it so that you must be a Christian to run for PUBLIC office etc.... A Christian theocracy. That sounds like freedom Right????????
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