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Old 06-16-2008, 06:28 PM   #31
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Default Re: Next time you're pumping gas at $4/gallon +.....

This thread has taken a very distinctive "Art Bell" turn.

I used to believe in the government, then I started reading and learning and paying attention, and that led to me believing in all kinds of conspiracy theories, and I totally bought into that way of thinking.

But I kept reading and learning and paying attention and I realized that conspiracy theories fall prey to the same exact problems that lead people to go looking for and formulating them in the first place. It's the "evil genius coincidence" principle. Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest solution is always best, and the simple solution is that these guys just don't know any better than anyone else, and make mistakes all the time. Conspiracy theories always have everything working out EXACTLY to Satan's plan or whatever, nothing ever goes wrong, and all the conspirators always keep quiet about it.

Please. People are inherently wrong about things almost all the time, and we have a system that encourages obfuscation of errors, not an attempt to fix them, and certainly not a willingness to accept blame for those mistakes. If you tell 10 people a secret, ANY 10 people, 9 of them will spill it within an hour, and the tenth will spill it the next day. It's not a conspiracy, it's just a swing of the pendulum. And it always swings back...
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Old 06-19-2008, 11:09 AM   #32
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Default Re: Next time you're pumping gas at $4/gallon +.....

[QUOTE=revefsreleets;405598]A) FDR was as entrenched in that office as any President since Washington. The circumstances surrounding those times and that situation will never be duplicated.
B) Most of those programs have morphed into things they were never intended to be
C) If FDR would have run first term on a platform of sacrifice and 30 year plans, he'd have been soundly beaten by Herbert Hoover[/QUOTE]

What?

In rebuttal...

A)I am speaking of FDR's first presidential candidacy and of the relief and reform he campaigned on. The word "entrenched" doesn't apply because he hadn't even served a term yet.

B)The programs certainly have shifted, but their core principles still exist. A testament to their value and worth in an ever changing world. An energy policy reflecting that ideal holds more weight than the current system.

C)Honestly, Hoover didn't have a chance, he even admitted so. A major reason why Roosevelt was elected was because of his talk of change. He spoke of long-term reform throughout his campaign... and continued to speak of his proposals directly to the American public after he was elected through his fireside chats.

I don't understand why you implied sacrifice... it was the Great Depression!

And what would the American people be sacrificing, exactly, if we were to demand an energy policy that relied on many alternative energy sources? I heard more oil drilling off the coast and more nuclear reactors yesterday. Our old friend coal was brought up. A long-term agenda towards infrastructure and furthur development of other, cleaner, readily available technologies was not once mentioned. THAT'S why we need a better energy policy.
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Old 06-19-2008, 12:20 PM   #33
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Default Re: Next time you're pumping gas at $4/gallon +.....

I don't think we are arguing about the same things. I said those circumstances could and never would be repeated. FDR is a horrible example because that was then, and this is now. People made sacrifices back then. If they wanted something, they were disciplined and saved. We've come a long way since then, and it's been the wrong way.

Any politician who proposes a 30 year plan that has Americans making sacrifices in the near-term will be discredited as a wacko and soundly thumped in any election at any level. Is it prudent to think strategically? Of course! Will it ever happen? Almost certainly not.

Thankfully, there are private companies that take the lead in things like this (see: Honda testing out it's first hydrogen fuel cell car). Necessity is the mother of invention, not the government or politicians.
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Old 06-19-2008, 02:12 PM   #34
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Default Re: Next time you're pumping gas at $4/gallon +.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
People made sacrifices back then. If they wanted something, they were disciplined and saved.
This is way off the topic of $4 gas, but you do realize a huge cause of the great depression was the fact that the so-called "roaring 20s" were almost entirely debt-financed. Everyone bought everything for ten cents on the dollar (10% down payment). Sort of like we've been doing for the last decade or so.

Personally, $4 a gallon gas doesn't bother me too much. Everyone who used to look down on me for riding a bike and a scooter now asks me where they can get one.
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:13 PM   #35
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Default Re: Next time you're pumping gas at $4/gallon +.....

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Originally Posted by davidgrenier View Post
This is way off the topic of $4 gas, but you do realize a huge cause of the great depression was the fact that the so-called "roaring 20s" were almost entirely debt-financed. Everyone bought everything for ten cents on the dollar (10% down payment). Sort of like we've been doing for the last decade or so.

Personally, $4 a gallon gas doesn't bother me too much. Everyone who used to look down on me for riding a bike and a scooter now asks me where they can get one.
10%? That's way more than the typical consumer could pony up today. Furthermore, the bank run was fueled by the top 1% and trickled down. There was also no middle class to speak of. Again, then and now can't be compared.
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:08 AM   #36
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Default Re: Next time you're pumping gas at $4/gallon +.....

Related, by going a bit too far IMHO

http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/20592964.html

By Rod Dreher



Published on Friday, Jun 20, 2008

DALLAS: You've heard it said that the world is flat — that today, all economics is global. Time to rethink that in light of the global energy crisis. The world is being rerounded, its horizons shrinking. Localism is the new globalism.

Cheap, abundant and accessible fossil fuels allowed us to create a world in which we are relatively unconstrained by geography. That era is passing into history, and it is not likely this process can be reversed.

There is simply not enough oil being extracted quickly or inexpensively enough to meet global demand — nor, in all likelihood, will there be again. This is called peak oil. Last week, economic analysts said Americans have never before spent a greater part of their income on energy costs. The sooner we come to terms with this reality, the sooner we can begin taking serious steps to adapt.

By this fall, chances are John McCain and Barack Obama will be talking more about energy than any other issue. They'll have to. That would be a real change from now.

Peak oil is a far more urgent crisis than climate change, yet its economic and social effects are not even on the candidates' agendas. Every petroleum-dependent aspect of our economy, from the far-flung distribution systems for consumer goods to the daily commute, will be difficult to sustain. The only question is how soon it will happen and how traumatic the transition will be.

National, state and local politicians would be smart to approach it with a series of policy proposals based on the concept of relocalization. It's the idea that in a world of costly energy, most economic and social activity will, of necessity, be local.

A comprehensive domestic energy policy should be geared toward helping regions, cities and neighborhoods depend as little as possible on petroleum. That could mean:

• Dramatically changing zoning restrictions to permit small retailing in residential areas, making it possible for people to walk or bike to do their shopping. Refuse to approve new housing developments unless they are designed for pedestrian accessibility to retail areas.

• Through regulation and tax-code changes, encouraging the development of local farming, so population centers can better afford to feed themselves. Similarly, discouraging the use of arable land for development.

• Government investing in expanding broadband infrastructure to make high-speed Internet access more accessible and affordable. A recent study by the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation ranked the U.S. 15th out of 30 industrialized countries in terms of broadband performance. Offering tax incentives to companies that use the Internet to decentralize their work force to homes and neighborhood clusters.

Beyond localism, a far-thinking federal energy policy would consider expanding the national rail system as an increasingly cost-effective alternative to air travel. More broadly, federal and state governments also could accelerate energy-smart consumer behavior by offering substantive tax incentives for purchasing solar panels or film, constructing energy-efficient housing or retrofitting existing housing.

When presidential candidates talk about ''energy independence,'' they're telling a half-truth. Yes, the United States is far too dependent on foreign oil. But at our current consumption rate, all proven U.S. reserves, and the estimated reserves in the Arctic, would supply the nation for only a few years. The notion that we will ever be truly energy independent is science fiction.

But we can be more energy secure by learning to live and work in ways that reduce our reliance on oil. ''The American way of life is not up for negotiation,'' Vice President Dick Cheney once said. Oil, however, is a finite resource. And the law of supply and demand is not up for repeal.

No question, it's going to be tough to change. We have no choice, and we have little time. It took the 20th century to build a way of life wholly dependent on cheap and available petroleum. The ground is rapidly giving way beneath our feet. The head of the Russian petro giant Gazprom said last week that he foresees demand driving oil to $250 a barrel by next year.

Our nation is living through a paradigm shift. Ordinary citizens are not waiting for official action and are already working on ideas at the grass roots (www.relocalize.net). We still need imaginative politicians who get what's happening and who can lead, rather than be led by events they scarcely understand.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreher is a Dallas Morning News editorial columnist. He can be e-mailed at rdreher@dallasnews.com.
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:35 PM   #37
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Default Re: Next time you're pumping gas at $4/gallon +.....

Bi-Partisan government is a FAILED experiment! The moment you divide people into two groups and tell them only ONE party gets to be the majority they instantly disagree no matter what the issue! Then WE lose!
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