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Old 06-17-2008, 08:34 AM   #21
lamberts-lost-tooth
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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Originally Posted by Steelerstrength View Post
26% or not, when you place your beliefs in the Constitution, that is precisely what you stand for. Otherwise, why have it written?
Abortion is legal in this country...but I will NEVER "place my belief" in it, and it will never be "what I stand for". Your statement doesnt stand up to reason.


Quote:
When someone chooses to fly that flag, how are we to know whether they are the "bigot" or the other?
You dont...you wont...pay more attention to the acts of bigots and less on their percieved "symbols".

Quote:
Defending freedom and speaking out against bigotry, and it's symbols, are two very different actions
I think I made it very clear that i care enough to fight for freedom in this country...and my post most clearly spoke out against bigotry....so I'm not sure what your point is.

Simply put....If one has a problem with Prostitution on Main street of your town...and you want the prostitution to STOP on main street....It does very little good to change the name of the street to "Center" street.
Yes, technically there is no longer prostitution on Main street, but in reality you have changed NOTHING.
Banning "symbols" will only make bigots change the symbol...(changing Main street to Center street) it does NOTHING to change the heart and the mind.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:22 AM   #22
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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Originally Posted by Hawk Believer View Post
I have never bought the whole "it was about states' rights, not slavery" argument. What was the major "state rights" issue that led to the Southern succession? It was entirely about slavery and the fear that rich slave owners in the South and the related economy would be undermined in the future.

Many people forget that the Federal government never even outlawed slavery in the South until well after they rebelled. Lincoln had no intention of getting rid of slavery when he entered office; his priority was to save the Union. The Federal govenment had banned slavery in states that were to be admitted to the union, not to states that already allowed it.

So when I hear the state rights argument, I tend to ask what state right was at issues other than that of slavery and maintaining a slave based economy when the South abandoned the USA. Any takers?
I am a history buff...my great great grandfather fought for the north and was wounded at Fort Donaldson but rejoined his company for the siege of Vicksburg. Lincoln never freed the slaves until two years into the war..but there were technically three reasons that the south formed its own government.

CULTURAL—The people of the North and South found it very difficult to agree on social and political issues bhecause of cultural differences..The North was mainly an urban society in which people held factory jobs....The South was primarily an agricultural society in which people lived in small villages and worked on farms and plantations.

ECONOMIC---The North was a manufacturing region and its people favored tariffs that protected factory owners and workers from foreign competition. Simply put, the south was being taxed pretty heavily on the cotton that was being sent to the North and there was major tariffs on cotton sold to foreign countries. The Southerners opposed tariffs that would cause prices of manufactured goods to increase. and the Planters were concerned that England may stop buying cotton from the South if tariffs were added.

CONSTITUTIONAL—A major conflict was states’ rights versus a strong central government. This conflict predated the Civil War by generations...in fact prominant Virginians such as Patrick Henry voiced concerns about the make up of the central Government as it was being formed...He was adamant about State rights over that of the Federal government and that same sentiment was prominant in the South up until the South formed the Confederate States. Southerners felt that they had the power to declare any national law illegal. Northerners believed that the national government’s power was supreme over the states.

Now...that being said...There is no doubt that from an economic point of view there were some Landowners that were petrified of losing their workbase if Slavery was abolished...but since only 26% of the southern families were slaveowners...this issue didnt affect the average southerner as much as the other issues.
You also have to take into consideration that alot of the more rural southerners were relatively self-sufficient and could have probably cared less about the mechanics behind government politics...but once the south formed its own government and war started...they would have considered the Northern Forces an invading army..and would have taken up arms out of a "sense" of duty.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:41 AM   #23
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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Now...that being said...There is no doubt that from an economic point of view there were some Landowners that were petrified of losing their workbase if Slavery was abolished...but since only 26% of the southern families were slaveowners...this issue didnt affect the average southerner as much as the other issues.
You also have to take into consideration that alot of the more rural southerners were relatively self-sufficient and could have probably cared less about the mechanics behind government politics...but once the south formed its own government and war started...they would have considered the Northern Forces an invading army..and would have taken up arms out of a "sense" of duty.
so thats what my history teacher babbled about for a whole semester??? i just learned more in one paragraph, then i did in 9 weeks.......
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Old 06-17-2008, 10:08 AM   #24
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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so thats what my history teacher babbled about for a whole semester??? i just learned more in one paragraph, then i did in 9 weeks.......
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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Originally Posted by lamberts-lost-tooth View Post
Abortion is legal in this country...but I will NEVER "place my belief" in it, and it will never be "what I stand for". Your statement doesnt stand up to reason.




You dont...you wont...pay more attention to the acts of bigots and less on their percieved "symbols".



I think I made it very clear that i care enough to fight for freedom in this country...and my post most clearly spoke out against bigotry....so I'm not sure what your point is.

Simply put....If one has a problem with Prostitution on Main street of your town...and you want the prostitution to STOP on main street....It does very little good to change the name of the street to "Center" street.
Yes, technically there is no longer prostitution on Main street, but in reality you have changed NOTHING.
Banning "symbols" will only make bigots change the symbol...(changing Main street to Center street) it does NOTHING to change the heart and the mind.
This is not about you, LLT. This is about the very first Constitution of the Confederate States. The recognizable significance of this document clearly represents the full intent of those in power, and those they represented. The language is precise as to what they forcefully believed with their hearts "...in the favor and guidance of almighty God."

And, you did indeed speak out against bigotry. No applause neccessary. But, once again, this is not about you. This is about someone actively and consciously choosing to fly a flag that incites hatred, racism and bigotry, and they know it.

I have no disagreement with any of your argument. Just a different perspective that required clarification.
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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This is about someone actively and consciously choosing to fly a flag that incites hatred, racism and bigotry, and they know it.
you can pluck the feathers off a rooster, but thats not goin to stop it from waken you up at dawn, and it'll grow new feathers.
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:51 PM   #27
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets View Post
you can pluck the feathers off a rooster, but thats not goin to stop it from waken you up at dawn, and it'll grow new feathers.
BINGO!!!

Banning a bigots flag would be the equivelant of me forcing the ACLU into taking their signs down. It doesnt change their agenda and doesnt change their beliefs...

If I want a bigot to change what can I do?

In the words of Oliver Wendell Holmes :
The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye: The more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.

Call out a bigots ignorance and watch them scurry into the shadows. Take away their flag and they remain ignorant....without a flag.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:36 PM   #28
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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but if you fly a Crescant Moon anywhere that I can see, I will take it as a declaration of war and will take action accordingly.
I will join your army!

AS I said previously, The Gadsden Flag "Don't Tread On Me" (my personal favorite of historical flags) and I do fly that flag at my home.

This image is the Culpeper minuteman flag which I want to get.


That and the first official Navy flag that is still flown today over the oldest commissioned navel ship afloat. The First Navy Jack is enjoying renewed popularity these days thanks to an order from the Secretary of the Navy that directs all U.S. Navy ships to fly the First Navy Jack for the duration of the War on Terrorism.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:40 PM   #29
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
i say let the southerners fly their flag. its kinda cute, like brownsfans bragging about all their dominance of the past and hanging championship banners in their driveway.
And Steeler fans bragging about one for the thumb, when neither teams fans actually won anything, it was the team that did it. But then, they were in the past also weren't they? ooops hijacking the thread so sorry but had to stand up for the Browns.

BTW it is Browns Fans. LOL
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:44 PM   #30
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Default Re: Heritage Not Hate

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you can pluck the feathers off a rooster, but thats not goin to stop it from waken you up at dawn, and it'll grow new feathers.
Thats why I do what I do. Cant fly it anymore once its burned! Buy another one, we'll burn another one!
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